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**Tim O'Keefe** · 06-18-2015, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by speedytop View Post

Hi,

I'm sorry, that English is not my native language.

But please, what is meant with " '57 Reunion "

A German reunion happened in 1989/1990.

Post war made "Afrika Ct's" could never be 57er, they could only be copies, reproductions or fakes.

Uwe

Hi Uwe

We use the '57 Reunion to denote the time these Afrika ct's first appeared. They were often associated with the vets reunions and seen at such events. If they are "57er's" that means they are "reproductions, copies or fakes", all the same to me.

Some of the larger DAK reunions were held just a few years after the war. Here is a bit from the '53 DAK Reunion Football match with the Desert Rats. Its just eight years later after the War and some of the German Vets are wearing tropenhelms with the national emblem, sitting side by side with British Vets also wearing their tunics with awards etc, enjoying the reunion and football match. Can't think of anywhere or anytime this would be possible than other with the War in North Afrika....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcZNxil7dQ

**speedytop** · 06-19-2015, 02:43 PM

Hi Tim,

If they are "57er's" that means they are "reproductions, copies or fakes", all the same to me.

That is a problem, because we have in the collectors community the term "57er"; not for copies, but for special substitute originals of the Third Reich era.
Decorations, that had been allowed to wear in a changed design without national socialist emblems. Officially allowed, based on the German law about orders and decorations from the year 1957.
It can be misleading, because these 57ers are not copies.
You can find a sub forum here for such decorations.

Post war made "Afrika ct's" appeared several years before the year 1957.

Uwe

**Tim O'Keefe** · 06-19-2015, 09:56 PM

Sorry for the confusion.

As we are talking about fake Afrika ct's, not legit "57er awards." Call them whatever you want they are still fakes, copies or reproductions....

Besides really does not make sense as there is no need to change an Afrika ct, it does not have any national socialist emblems.

**90th Light** · 06-19-2015, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by speedytop View Post

Hi Tim,

That is a problem, because we have in the collectors community the term "57er"; not for copies, but for special substitute originals of the Third Reich era.
Decorations, that had been allowed to wear in a changed design without national socialist emblems. Officially allowed, based on the German law about orders and decorations from the year 1957.
It can be misleading, because these 57ers are not copies.
You can find a sub forum here for such decorations.

Post war made "Afrika ct's" appeared several years before the year 1957.

Uwe

You are absolutely correct Uwe,

the official items made to be worn by German veterans still serving in German armed forces after WW2 and items made officially for veteran reunions after May 1945 are proper items awarded or given to the soldiers who earned them the hard way with real meaning.

To call these reproductions or fakes is an insult to the these men who really saw and knew those times. Plus such items are now increasingly collectable and sought after today.

I know for a fact, my relatives who served in North Africa and Italy in the years 1941 to 1945, valued the medals they were given after WW2 and appreciated the items of recognition given to them at DAK, 90th Light, 44th Division, GJR, FJR & Kreta reunions they attended at the invite of the German government.

Today many of these items have been passed on to me and I value them as a memory of some of the kindest/ wisest people in my life who were really there but no longer with us,

Chris

**Tim O'Keefe** · 06-19-2015, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

You are absolutely correct Uwe,

the official items made to be worn by German veterans still serving in German armed forces after WW2 and items made officially for veteran reunions after May 1945 are proper items awarded or given to the soldiers who earned them the hard way with real meaning.

To call these reproductions or fakes is an insult to the these men who really saw and knew those times. Plus such items are now increasingly collectable and sought after today.

I know for a fact, my relatives who served in North Africa and Italy, valued the medals they were given after WW2 and appreciated the items of recognition given to them at DAK, 90th Light, 44th Division, GJR, FJR & Kreta reunions they attended at the invite of the German government.

Today many of these items have been passed on to me and I value them as a memory of some of the kindest/ wisest people in my life who were really there but no longer with us,

Chris

Uh guys, way off topic. Nobody's calling any legit '57 awards fake. We are discussing Afrika ct's, if they were used or issued during the war

**Antonio Scapini** · 06-20-2015, 05:21 AM

We call (even if it is nit correct) '57, the type of cufftitle made postwar and found in '57 vets groups. Yes, it was not an award made in the so called "new form", but it is not what we call "fake" because it was a sort of "official post war pattern" as could be a '57 EK or a '57 ISA.

**speedytop** · 06-20-2015, 06:59 AM

Hi Antonio,

We call (even if it is nit correct) '57, the type of cufftitle made postwar ...

Absolutely No!

That is definitely incorrect.

... because it was a sort of "official post war pattern"

And that is definitely also wrong. "The type of cufftitle made postwar" is not an original, it is always a copy/reproduction (it must not be a fake).

It was official, to wear (theoretical) such a cufftitle since the law from 1957.

But it was not official, to produce a copy/reproduction, never! A vet could wear one of his originals.

And, as I wrote it before, such cufftitles had been produced several years before the law from 1957, and absolutely the same pieces could have been produced after 1957.

Therefore the connection with the law from 1957 was wrong, is wrong and will ever be wrong.

Uwe

**Antonio Scapini** · 06-20-2015, 01:34 PM

Uwe, we all know it is not correct, and we all know no '57 Afrika CT was ever made, but this pattern is the only one we found several times in '57 groups. So this is the reason for this connection. Have you some other patterns of '57 groups to show us?
Those who lost-broke-missed their original CTs used this pattern. Why only this and not another of the thousand "fakes"?
IMO there's a difference between a fake and a pattern used and recognized from all the vets.

**speedytop** · 06-20-2015, 02:12 PM

Antonio,

IMO there's a difference between a fake and a pattern used and recognized from all the vets.

No, not really. A vet could use one of his originals, or he could use a copy/reproduction or even a fake/forgery.

It is unfortunately the last-ditch attempt of several 57er collectors, to upgrade their not original pieces (copies/reproductions) on a higher level.

A copy is a copy. Why to differentiate between a copy in my collection and a copy in the hands of a vet? A copy is a copy.

Please, how would you as a veteran, living in the year 1954, have called such a not original cufftitle (knowing, that it is not an original)? Something like '57? What an unbelievable nonsense.

Uwe

**speedytop** · 06-20-2015, 02:25 PM

... we found several times in '57 groups.

It should be better, to call such groups "vets groups/veteran groups with 57er decoration/s". The group could exist since his first awards in 1936/1939, with several decorations, and only one real 57er, for example a wound badge in gold.

Why must it be called a '57 group? That is misleading.

Uwe

**Antonio Scapini** · 06-20-2015, 03:53 PM

I called '57 groups just to identify groups of '57 awards. Yes they could be made in '50 - '60 or '70, we'll never known.

I'm not trying to upgrade a copy of an original, IMO value don't change. I used that definition just only to identify a CT that is a known postwar different from others.

It is a mistake identify an award as '57, we know it. Forgive us for this semplification!

**90th Light** · 06-20-2015, 05:23 PM

For me it is simple,

1/ if a "nickel and dime" merchant makes some crap piece of cloth with the word "Afrika" to sell to the feeble, the simple, the blind, the dumb and the unwary then that is a fake/ reproduction.

2/ On the other hand if the German government makes and gives a German veteran an award after WW2 for something earned during WW2 then that is official. Equally if a German veteran association went to the trouble of issuing an award to those from WW2 rightfully entitled to such an award then that is semi-official.

Catergory 2/ is both interesting and collectable. There is no way I am going to view something as a fake in the hands or from the estate of the person who rightfully earned it during the war. If he has the entry in his soldbuch or the award document then that is real. Obviously an item made and actually awarded before May 1945 will command a premium and always be the most desired by collectors.

However, this is about real history and that did not always stop in May 1945. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water on this one,

Chris

**90th Light** · 06-20-2015, 05:32 PM

And just to add more to our confusion about what is a good "Afrika" C/T and what is not, my friend who has seen the pre-May 1945 variation type has emailed me this;

"Having sat here casting my mind back and looking carefully at the first example put up by Tim O'K. I think it may be the very same one.
If not then it is very, very close ! Sorry, I should have spent more time looking at that first title put up by Tim.
Yep, the more I look at the first example on the thread the more I think it may be the same cuff title that came from the LW stores on the airfield at Luckenwalde May 1945."

Thus lets not yet write off that first one as bad. Of course some dealers may have sold them post-war to rein-actors. However, how do we know that they had not in fact been selling left over shop hoards or warehouse finds made before May 1945 and not issued ???

Chris

**Tim O'Keefe** · 06-20-2015, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by speedytop View Post

It should be better, to call such groups "vets groups/veteran groups with 57er decoration/s". The group could exist since his first awards in 1936/1939, with several decorations, and only one real 57er, for example a wound badge in gold.

Why must it be called a '57 group? That is misleading.

Uwe

Hi Uwe

Thanks for the correction. The groups are veteran groups with the dark brown ( non- standard, fake, copy, repro, take your pick ?) Afrika ct added at some point, could be anytime postwar you are correct. I'm sure Antonio & I will be refraining from using the term "57er" to descibe any Afrika ct's in the future

**Tim O'Keefe** · 06-20-2015, 08:05 PM

Hi Chris

Thanks for the info and observations. Agree with your "simple" categories. Just a matter of separating these ct's into which ? As far as i know the Afrika vets were not issued any "veteran" Afrika ct at any reunion etc. They certainly purchased them in various forms including the standard original and fakes post war.

There is possible photographic evidence of the red/brown version in the KM photo from Gordon posted earlier ? I can't make that call from the single photo, it looks like the standard version to me but i could be wrong on this...the actual ct does appear worn and used. Other than that there is no other photographic evidence so far ?

The info from your friend on the airfield at Luckenwalde May 1945 is very interesting. Please thank him for me, look forwards to more info

Have held these and they are not smooth, nor like the original standard version. These started to show up often at the Max shows in the 80's and are still made today for re-enactors as Antonio's example post #7. The three different shades do not help imo. But look forwards to more info as always on anything....

with best regards
Tim

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