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**Frank Heukemes** · 09-01-2002, 06:55 AM

Dear Mark,

With the first shield shown here, it it really hard to say for me. I wouldn´t discard it just because of the melted triangle and the difefernt type of letter B. It is true that our other shields have distinctive borders to the triangle but just look at the variety of eagle´s heads that we see here. There are some that I would have found strange if not pictured in the context of an otherwise good badge.

With the first shield shown nothing really SCREAMS fake, everything COULD be ok, from cloth to stamps. That´s what makes it difficult. Just saw that badge in an auction and had no chance to handle it.

Cheers, Frank H.

**Gordon Williamson** · 09-01-2002, 07:46 AM

I have had a couple of these Kubans in the past and have had no reason to doubt them. Its not that rare an award and if you look close enough you will always be able to find minor detail differences between examples of the shields indicating several different makers. Another small difference is the angled slope of the numeral 4. on some it is dead straight and on others it has a definite curve to it.
I've yet to see a convincing fake of the Kuban made from bronzed magnetic sheet metal with the edge tabs. The reasonably convincing fakes are usually those made from brass with separately affixed prongs. I would be very wary of any brass Kuban.

I don't like the right hand one that Ralph posted though the one on the left looks fine. There were a lot of fakes of the Krim and Kuban made from Brass circulating in the 70s/early80s, very well made, but very "flat" looking and always with that mottled tarnish look. Loads of them were on Luftwaffe backing (original cloth). If the one that Frank posted at the start of the thread was magnetic, I'd say its probably OK, though I would have strong suspicions of any ink stamps on shields simply because they are way too easy to fake.
I have seen shields though that were maker marked on the reverse face of the shield itself. Whilst it may seem a pointless exercise when it would never be seen, they were available to buy with or withour backplate or cloth so I can see why some manufacturers would still want to mark them. Someone buying one without backing would see the mark and be impressed by the manufacturer's product.
Only shileds I have ever seen actually marked though were all Krims.

Gordon

**Ralph A** · 09-01-2002, 01:26 PM

Here are the backs of my two. The one with the fabric that Gordon dislikes is totally non-magnetic, and the shield itself has an almost "plastic" consistency to it, though with the addition of the plate and cloth it is heavier than you would expect.. Also, it is an old e-pier acquisition. I go with Gordon on this one. . .I never really "liked" it, which is why I have the second shield.

This second one (no cloth) is magnetic; shield and plate, and was acquired from a more reputable source, as part of a group of medals, qualification badges, campaign awards and their accompanying award documents.

Mark, the suspect badge does have the requisite "A and triangle" so the theory is not the end-all, as you point out, just one of the many clues you have to piece together when considering these shields.

Attached Files

kubanmontagebackweb.jpg (52.9 KB, 154 views)

**Mark S.** · 09-01-2002, 02:36 PM

Ralph, is the oil stains on the backing paper from the glue?

**Jos L C** · 09-01-2002, 04:42 PM

Hi,
Here's one of mine,Luft ofcourse !
Nice thing on this one is that the swas is raised above the wreath,don't know if that's the case with the other Kubans too ?
It's the same one like Ralphs shield and I believe it to be original for you don't see this type very often IMO,if fake I must have seen more of these over all those years and I didn't.
The shield isn't brass IMO,but probably a kind of zinc alloy that has been plated.

Jos.

Attached Files

lw-kuban.jpg (73.3 KB, 152 views)

**Ralph A** · 09-01-2002, 05:02 PM

The stains on the back of the paper seem to correspond to where the glue is heaviest, yes. It's a "ringer" for the Luftwaffe shield posted directly above. The swastika is raised to the same degree. Other details match also. hmmmm..

**Jos L C** · 09-01-2002, 05:13 PM

Here's the back,no glue......
On the other hand,I can't see what's the trouble with glue stains on a paper backing,doesn't tell me it has something to do with fake or not....
Sometimes shields got new cloth backings done after the war by collectors,so you can't draw conclusions on a paper backing etc.

Jos.

Attached Files

lw-kuban-b.jpg (72.6 KB, 143 views)

**Bruce Simcox** · 10-25-2019, 02:42 PM

Hi Guys

......I was looking for some information to confirm that Krim shields were only manufactured using zinc or steel. I was pretty sure that was the case, but i just wanted to be very sure, before I broached the subject with a seller on the estand, who is listing a tombac Krim shield.

In the process I came across this old thread.
I thought to bring it up again for a look back.
As you can see, it is from the early days of the forum, a time when many of us were finally able to enjoy the ability to discuss, share and learn, via the internet.

I'm interested to see what conclusions, about the shields in this thread, we would arrive at today.
While I'm not trying to create an atmosphere of judgment concerning any of the conclusions reached back then, it does demonstrate how far we've come, and how greatly our base of knowledge has expanded, in just the past 20 years. This growth of information has enabled us to sift effectively through the pervasive minefields of FAKES.

**Ralph A** · 10-25-2019, 03:28 PM

The one on the right in my post is still a fake, after 20 years... at least, that is what I'm told. Unfortunately, after 20 years some of my "iron clad provenance got-to-sleep over" TR stuff turned out to be fake, too. But one of the fake party pins turned out to be real. Is anything real? Am I real?

**Bruce Simcox** · 10-25-2019, 04:40 PM

Hi Ralph

.....I belong to the same group of collectors who bought iron-clad collectibles that turned out to be FAKE. I do believe that our chances of getting burned again have been greatly diminished over the years.

I did buy a known FAKE kuban just to take it apart and examine it. I bought it knowingly as a FAKE. I think it was like $10 on the estand bazaar, so that made it worth the effort.

I wish I could say that about the other crap I ended up with over time.

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LDO stamp on shield paper

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