The METZ 1944 Cuff Title

[TP Alexander]

Tim, can you show us why we should believe some are textbook some others not?
It seems to me what happend with the Memel medals some years ago: one was textbook (?) And all the rest not. Today we know 11 different manufactures.

Antonio,
Perhaps I use the incorrect phraseology. When ten or eleven of the cuff titles that one sees on WAF threads all exhibit the same four characteristics, I think anyone in my position might call them "textbook".
I also understand what you are saying about different makers being discovered. It has been 70 years since the METZ title came out. Where are these different makers? We've had the Internet for 25 years, more or less. The world has shrunken down and people talk to each other and trade photos all over the world in a heartbeat. Where are these other variations? Why don't we see them?
Please, show your other cuff titles! Don't make us wait till next year when the book comes out. I am anxious to be proven wrong in my assumptions and I am sure everyone else would be thrilled to see another variation turn out in large numbers. I believe you said that you got four of them at one time. Do you still have them or do you have pictures of them that you could post?
If you look at the last post that I made, I believe that you will see that Indycollector has the same type of cuff title that Paul Demel kindly shared images of with us. Am I correct in that or is that yet another possible variation?
If it will help, I will say that I have seen a large number of one type of variation of the METZ 1944 cuff title. I am not trying to give the cuff title that we have seen the most of, any kind of cachet, simply because it is the most viewed on the WAF!
I have no dog in this contest, not being the owner of any of the different types that you advocate as being real.
I'm Mr. Cooperation here, believe me. I am just a poor grasshopper, seeking knowledge in the forest!
Thanx,
Tim

[Indycollector]

TP- Per your request a photo of the reverse, also included a photo of one of the ends.

[Indycollector]

All:
I took my Metz Cufftitle to the SOS a couple of weeks ago. Showed it to some big name dealers. Even some of them indicated they had never handled/ observed one of these before. Some said it was original, others did not know or would not offer an opinion. Some indicated that even within their staff there was dissent regarding these. Think these are so rare there are very few to compare against. Most likely Antonio and Bob have handled and seen more of these than almost anybody else, with this in mind value their opinion/experience greatly.

[Antonio Scapini]

...We've had the Internet for 25 years, more or less. The world has shrunken down and people talk to each other and trade photos all over the world in a heartbeat. Where are these other variations? Why don't we see them?

Tim, there are some pieces you'll probably never see on forums.
Do you want to know the reason? Because if someone post these pieces, there sill be probably some inexperienced collector who will dismiss them because they are not "textbook".
But "textbook" in the case of the Metz CT seems it means "the most acclamed".

I suggest you another thread, in which you can see a CT you consider "not textbook" blessed from some of the most experienced collectors...
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=752701

[TP Alexander]

Tim, there are some pieces you'll probably never see on forums.
Do you want to know the reason? Because if someone post these pieces, there sill be probably some inexperienced collector who will dismiss them because they are not "textbook".
But "textbook" in the case of the Metz CT seems it means "the most acclamed".

I suggest you another thread, in which you can see a CT you consider "not textbook" blessed from some of the most experienced collectors...
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=752701

So, what you are saying is that if someone has a really great item, he should not show it on the WAF, because an inexperienced person will say "I don't like it. Because I don't like it, it isn't real?"!
Really!??!! That's the basis for your argument?
I am sorry, but that is just so much nonsense. You are intimating that you, or another person , would be afraid that a newbie is going to diss something and then you'd feel bad and think it wasn't real? Ridiculous. Ridiculous in the extreme.
I just dealt with a person like that. He has an item for sale on the E-Stand. I asked an innocent question about it on a discussion forum and sent him a PM so that he was aware of it. He went bonkers, completely bonkers. He said I was trying to discredit his item. After an exchange of 6 or 7 posts, he finally said, "Well, you didn't try to discredit it, but someone could say it is bad if it's discussed." There are(!) people like that out there, but it is faulty thinking and it just doesn't fly. Excuse me, but I don't think we will learn anything if we live in fear that someone might say something is bad. I have posted things that I thought were bad that were good. I have posted things that I thought were good that were bad. Either way, I learned something in the process.

When the first METZ 1944 cuff title showed up on the Forum, did that person think that it might be called a fake? Maybe. But he went ahead and showed it. If you say that the next one was shown because it was similar to the first, I don't buy it. Some of the things have been shown on the WAF were silly looking, crude and obvious reproductions. They were still shown.

As far as the thread where you show your METZ CT for the first time, I wouldn't say that it was "blessed". I saw people congratulating you. I didn't see any new collector say "That's a fake." I also didn't see the back of that cuff title and you put a post up saying "Send me a PM and I will show you." Why wouldn't you show the back of the CT if you are so sure that people were blessing it?

The whole purpose of this thread was to show everything that has been posted so as to give people that are looking at a CT something to compare it to. You say that I shouldn't say textbook in regards to the CT that has the four characteristics
that are common to it. OK, I won't . But for the sake of Heaven above, we're here to learn, to help each other. I consider paying my $25 a year a privilege. I get to talk to people, I get to learn things, I get to exchange views with people all over the world. I get to see real items that help me when I go to military shows.

Show your cuff titles, front and back. If someone says something bad about them, we'll debate and discuss those points. Discussion bears fruit. Then other people will show theirs and we will see so many of the type that you are holding that I'll have to "eat crow" and say "Antonio, there are so many of those cuff titles that are similar to yours, I guess we'll have to call them textbook and the ones that I have seen on the WAF up to this point are a variant!"

We're here to learn, we're here to help each other. This is the spirit , the true spirit of the WAF!
Most respectfully,
Tim Alexander

[Bob Hritz]

Well, Antonio's Metz1944 is original in my opinion. In 50 years, I have handled 4 of them. One helped me get my camo SS M-43 cap, with colored insignia. It went to a long time collector who specializes in insignia.

Another was gotten for a collector friend, and one for my own collection. All of them had the same traits with one exception. Two of them had the cutting lines and two did not. Since one row of cutting lines woukd separate the titles, every other cuff title would have the cutting guide lines. The pattern of letters, wool material, and border material was identical.

Keeping track of items, in others' collections, for 50 years, makes it a bit easier to see what I am studying. I have seen variations of low production items as well as those of great quantity production. A good example is the SA (not the military) Feldherrnhalle cuff title. There are five different types with variations of border material, color and thread of band material, punch card pattern for Jacquard weaving machine, most easily seen from the reverse design. The SA Feldherrnhalle was a relatively small unit, but had huge varations in cuff titles. The Kurland cuff title has several weave and thread patterns, but production was very small.

I don't know what to tell anyone looking for a piece of insignia. I just do my research and listen to those who have the most experience. But I do encourage every collectir to study and learn. No one should acquire an item that does not instill confidence in authenticity withing their collecting perameters.

Tim, I certainly would not have pointed out the cuff title to you if I did not have full confidence of authenticity. If the price was more favorable to me, I would buy it myself to keep for the future. I had made an offer to buy it, previously, and your bad mouthing of it may ultimately make it available to me for my offer.

Bob Hritz

Bob Hritz

[TP Alexander]

I am most certainly going to contact Mr. Demel by phone and assure him that I have not and nor have I had any intention of bad mouthing his CT.
It is obvious that a person must be happy with all aspects of a purchase.
I did what any rational person would do. I did as much research on it as possible. If you'll remember, I showed you a Kriegsmarine Officers Visor Hat at the SoS that I had bought. Alas, I did not do my homework on it and I had to return it.
I realized, at that time, that I had fallen victim of my own stupidity in rushing a purchase. I resolved to be more circumspect in my ways and take my time.
You know of the myriad reasons that have prompted me to put off the purchase of this particular item. I appreciated your help and I am hopeful that you will not harbor hard feelings and ill will towards me because of what may well be excessive caution.
I've looked and looked at everything I can find on the METZ CT and I would hope to have make the next person's search easier by doing this thread.
I do not think that Mr. Demel is going to have a very hard time selling it. He sent me an email, telling me that he had bought it in a flea market in Munich many years ago. An accompanying(?) WEHRPASS was stolen from the vendor shortly before he bought it. Between seeing the front of Antonio's and seeing the front and back, in detail, of Indycollector's, I won't be the least bit surpised to see it sell in the next week.
The only thing that may forestall it's sale is it's price. I know you get tired of hearing this, but in today's rarefied economy, people are more then cautious with their money.
Gotta' go. Wanna' make a phone call.
Tim

[Bob Hritz]

Tim,

You and I have been good friends long enough to be able to disagree and remain close friends. Thses things are just trinkets, friendship is of true value.

Bob Hritz

[Antonio Scapini]

Tim,

You and I have been good friends long enough to be able to disagree and remain close friends. Thses things are just trinkets, friendship is of true value.

Bob Hritz

I fully agree.

Tim, your way of thinking is correct, but IMHO it is missed of some details.
1) some items are so rare that only few collectors know them. Sometimes posting one of them means make long discussions and waste a lot of time only because some people say "it is not textbook" (when they don't know why a textbook piece is really textbook).
I could write tens examples of pieces never posted on forum, and in my upcoming book about the Bandenkampfabzeichen you will see at least 3 or 4 of them. An example? Look for a BKA with the black sword and you'll find nothing...
But I could go on and on, in each field from awards to the SS.
2) some rare items are often not showed to avoid fakers have new starting points.

About the spirit of the forum Tim let me say I know it very well, every day since years I spend my time to help all the collectors I can, here, via email and on other places. If I did not believe in the spirit of the forum, then I would not be here.

PS: you probably don't recognize that all the CTs you posted on posts 5-6-7-8-13... are exactly the same pattern of the one I posted and of the one for sale that someone believe not real.
You can find this pattern with or without back white orizontal stitching, but this pattern is the most easy to recognize due to its characteristics.
This pattern is the Junction ring between what I think to be the 2 "early" and the 2 late.
Hope this help Tim!

[TP Alexander]

I may very well have been too pedantic and set in my ways of thinking. Unfortunately, the only examples on the WAF to be found by search (by and large) of this CT are of the one variety of the famous "four characteristics" & I am sure that seeing only these colored my thinking.
I have enjoyed the back and forth with you and will consider your arguments in support of your position. I used to be on the debating team in school and I learned a lot about challenging other people's opinions. I didn't always win. I wasn't always right and I wasn't always well enough versed in my subject presentation.
Time will tell.
Perhaps people will see this thread and begin to show their CTs on here and hopefully we can see more SOLDBUCH/WEHRPASS entries concerning this award.
Tim

[Antonio Scapini]

Tim I thought you understood, but after reading your answer I understand I was mistaken.
Please read my last post and make some good comparisons before answer again.
You will see you posted 2 different styles of cufftitles and one of them is exactly the same of the one you think fake.
Believe me: make some good comparisons Tim.
It's hard to change the mind of someone if don't want, but this thread is not useful if informationspresent the same type as original and questionble at the same time!

[TP Alexander]

In the United States, in the mid-1980's, there was no Internet. There was Manions. They still had a sterling reputation and you could find many wonderful things there. There was also DER GAULEITER, a small trade magazine edited and published by Bob Treend. These were the sole nationwide publications for militaria collectors. At that time, I had a three piece group from the REICHSAUTOZUG DEUTSCHLAND. It had originally been owned by Ron Fink, a militaria shop owner in Calumet City, Illinois. He had shown it to John Angolia. Mr. Angolia made very little of it, stating that it was nothing more then the the trappings of a German motorcar competition club. Jill Halcomb did little more with it, saying that it had to do with transportation for the SA. I did some investigation and research and came up with a theory and supposition, making much more of the RAZD, then had been thought previous to this. I used the Organisationsbuch NSDAP and after getting whatever information I could, I felt that I knew much more about it then Angolia or Halcomb did, combined. I wrote an article for DER GAULEITER and Mr. Treend, approving of it, published it. I got letters and comments from people and it excited discussion. Now to the key point. A man by the name of Willem Saris wrote me a very nice letter, explaining exactly what the RAZD was and that I was wrong in what I had written. I was largely wrong about what I had written, but at least I had the audacity to write about it. "L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace!"

Now, my point is, there may have been people that felt that I was being presumptuous, writing about the METZ 1944 cuff title. I was interested in purchasing one for my collection and I found threads scattered all over the WAF, dating from 2003 up to 2015. I wanted to make a compilation of all of the data into one thread so that not only I, but the next guy would have all of the facts at their fingertips, even if there was a scarcity of information. And indeed, there is a marked scarcity of information concerning this award. I saw a pinned thread on the CHOLM shield and another on the repro KUBAN shield, but nothing on any cuff title, much less the rarest of them all! I was also surprised to see no pinned thread on the Spanien 1936-1939 cuff title. Food for thought should anyone wish to do something about it. First, I asked Pascal H. what he thought of it and after the exchange of a few PMs, I forged ahead. I made a compilation of the available photographs and remarks of all the different METZ 1944's that I could find. Where the opinion of the contributors of the thread felt it was bad or good, I marked that as the judgment. I included a link to each thread so that anyone that wanted to could go to that thread and look and judge for themselves. It would be their money that they would be spending if they were interested in buying one, so why not give them all of the info available.
After all of that work, getting everything together, I looked at a cuff title that was for sale and from WHAT I COULD SEE, it appeared that it might not be all that it was cracked up to be.
Enter Antonio Scapini. After a series of spirited exchanges, he convinced me that I was wrong, much as Mr. Saris convinced me of the error of my ways regarding the RAZD insignia group and it's origins and purposes. Now here's the thing. At least I had enough interest and I cared enough about trying to pull what was available together, not only for myself, but for anyone else that needed it. I tried, I was wrong. Did anyone learn anything from this other than myself? Of course they did. I had numerous people that talked to me personally and via emails and PMs. So, aside from the fact that all of the threads are tied together, it benefited people that are on the WAF. Good enough for me. So for anyone that thinks that I should have kept my thoughts to myself, I would have to challenge them to explain why. I would like to thank Mr. Scapini and Mr. Hritz. They were both invaluable in shaping the way that I looked at things in regards to this cuff title and antiques and collectibles in general. To quote a very smart person, " I have made enough mistakes, jumping into things that I had not researched, to use caution before I buy. I always advise anyone to avoid items outside of their comfort level. I believe Antonio because he is not a dealer, but a researcher and collector. He has nothing to gain by trying to stretch the truth." Words to live by gentlemen! Not only regarding Mr. Scapini but to apply to everything in general in your search for that item that you desire.
Lastly, I would like to mention that I bought this award that was for sale in the United States. Lest anyone think that I was belittling it so that I might drive the price down, I will tell you that I bought it at a price very close to the original asking price, getting only a little bit more than the discount given to a 'new customer'. After everything was said and done, my comfort level was....comfortable. I feel that I will be able to sleep nights, knowing that I have become one of the few custodians of a rare piece of historical insignia.
Tim Alexander

[Antonio Scapini]

Thanks Tim for your kind words.
I'm very happy you can be (as you told me) a guardian of a rare piece of history.

Just to close this thread I post here the three dirrent patterns of cufftitles I found as original due to their unquestionable provenance.
2 of them are showed here on WAF in various occasions, another was (as far as I know) never posted.

What I call the first pattern is the most rare. Probably was really the first made, but who knows?
The third pattern is the less accurated, and this let me think about a very late production made to cover the request for both the awards giving and the LDO shops (Metz was instituted as award and as the other campaign cufftitles a soldier with regular criteria could buy it showing the proper documents).
Is it also possible that 2 or 3 different firms were involved in production of this cufftitle, but until today we can only speculate about this.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Type 2, Lot 6405, HH 70, May 11, 2015.
Courtesy of Hermann Historica.





See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Type 2, Lot 4127, HH 63, October 29, 2011.
Courtesy of Hermann Historica.




See You

Vince