Brandenburg, Grossdeutschland and Hermann Goring Cuff titles REAL OR REPRO??

[David Riley]

Greetings all! Could I please get some assistance with whether these cuff titles are originals or reproductions? These are not my area of expertise and the only reference book I have on them (Bender) does not provide enough detail. They were purchased from a moderately sized collection. Most of the items in the collection were original with a small amount of repro stuff. The cuff titles were a mixed bag of both. I bought these as repro, so if they are, I haven't really lost a great deal!
All are completely UV negative. The Brandenburg one appears to have been attached to a uniform (or perhaps several?)with 2 different types of fine thread, as you can see in the photos. It is made of of a coarser dark green wool, where the Grossdeutschland is on a finer almost doeskin like wool. The Hermann Goring example is on Black wool (For Panzer??) and does show considerable loss of nape to the wool to the reverse, where you would expect to see this. Sorry about the picture quality (I-Phone4!), they are not really that good, but give the viewer a rough idea of what they are looking at. They have dulled down some of the images and made the material look a bit odd in others. For example the last shot of the HG cuff title does not reflect that it is aluminium silver bullion thread you are looking at.
All I can add is that they came from an older collection, with the original owner ceasing to collect about 20 odd years ago.
Opinions and any comparisons most welcome!

[Kyle Harrington]

Cuff titles

The GD and Brandenburg are 100% original with the Brandenburg being very rare indeed.I think the HG is ok but I will leave that to more experienced Luftwaffe comrades.
Regards Kyle

[David Riley]

Thank you Kyle for taking the time to reply! I might post some extra photos of the HG cuff title as it doesn't actually look like a black (not blue) wool base.
Kind regards
David

[Patrick W]

3 x times thumbs up from me- fantastic find and the Brandenburg is wonderful

[djpool]

Agree! Nice indeed.

[Lars Holden]

Cuff Titles

Hello all.

I recently became a member of this web-site due to an inadvertent discovery of the posted photos of the 'Brandenburg' and 'Grossdeutschland' cuff titles, the subject of this post. I immediately recognized them as the ones I had formerly owned, having been passed to me by my father who died in 1969. These cuff titles have a very interesting history and they are indeed totally original and authentic......

My father's name during WW2 was Hanns Joachim Kreuzer and he wore those cuff titles with pride and honour, on his uniforms, during his service with 10.Batterie/Pz.Art.Rgt. 'Brandenburg', Division 'Brandenburg', Pz.Corps 'Grossdeutschland'. He served in Czechoslovakia and other eastern locations until he was captured by the Russians in 1945. He became extremely ill, almost died during his captivity and was subsequently one of the very few of his colleagues who was repatriated. He was born in the former Eastern (Prussian) part of Germany, into an aristocratic family; his father was 'Freier' Lucian von Krzyzanowski, Colonel in the German Military Police during WW2. Sadly he was executed by the Russians for alleged war crimes just after the war.

My father later fled the east as a political refugee and finally settled with his family in Melbourne Australia. I inherited these cuff titles and other interesting items when he died. I subsequently "gave" these items to a friend/colleague/collector, Michael Wurfel, who also is now deceased.

There is a great deal more to this story, from a family viewpoint, that may be of interest to a bona-fide collector or historical researcher. I am available via email, to answer any queries.


Regards, Lars T. Holden (Formerly KREUZER and von KRZYZANOWSKI)

[Blue Yeti]

Wow great provenance on some great cuff's, fantastic thread.

BY

[EvaB1945]

Welcome and Thankyou!

HI Lars,

Welcome to the forum! I hope you enjoy the wealth of knowledge on here from collectors!

That's pretty neat about your family story, thank you for sharing.

there was a Pz Gren 'Grossdeutschland' division too wasn't there?

Where abouts in Czechslovakia was your father located? in the Protectorate or elsewhere?

[Don Bible]

Mr. Holden, welcome to the WAF, where I am sure many members will be very interested in the part your family played in WWll. You will be a source of great information to the fortunate person who now owns those cuff titles. I envy that collector for having been the person who acquired them.

You have provided that person with a unique opportunity to learn history that few persons ever have the chance you have provided.

I am glad to have the pleasure to say welcome!

[Lars Holden]

Brandenburg/Grossdeutschland cuff titles

Hello again members and thank you for your kind words of welcome, etc.

Rather than reply to each interested individual, I think I will reply to several at a time, in this case Don Bible, EvaB1945 and Blue Yeti......

I am now a 65 year old man and when my father, the original owner/wearer of these cuff titles died in 1969, I was an 18 year old youth. I recall that my father never really spoke about war-time matters; perhaps three times during my lifetime did he mention 'things' and then only when I pushed him persistently.

My mother is still alive and in reasonable health, I will be seeing her some time this week, I will ask her for some more detail about my father, but again I believe what he told her about the war was also limited. Whatever the case, it must surely be interesting to any collector to trace pieces of wartime property back to the original owner, by name and history.

I can tell you all that I do not know where my father was taken prisoner at this time, other than it was in eastern Europe. There are a couple of things my father told me that took place as his unit was 'fleeing' from the Russians. One incident he described, stands out in my mind very vividly.....This was, as he put it....he and several colleagues were in physical contact with the advancing Russians when they abandoned their equipment and actually started to run away and ahead of the Russians who were physically pursuing them on foot. My father told me that during this time of peril, fear and the rest, he and his colleagues were removing or attempting to remove articles of rank, unit identification and so on of from their uniforms, whilst actually running, fleeing ahead of the Russians.

He told me that one of the terrors he would never forget was the sight of one of his colleagues running parallel and at some distance from himself, away from the Russians, when a mortar shell exploded just ahead of his colleague. My father told me that he saw his friend running into the exploding mortar and he saw that explosion virtually gutting his friend, who continued to run a few more paces before dropping. This to me was a mentally visual scene that is always with me. There is not much more my father told me, with the exception of his terrible treatment by the Russians as a prisoner of war.

I suppose the rational person would be thinking about the tit-for-tat scenarios in the case of Russians verses Germans in WW2. Clearly the did hate and fear each other, but it all becomes very personal when one's own relatives were involved.

Whatever the case, my father was repatriated and I am pleased that I am here because of that.

This issue of his Father, the Colonel of the Military Police; he was captured by the Russians, don't know where, and physically dragged away, putting up a fight which caused him to be shot through the wrist. I don't know what he did, but he was later executed by the Russians for alleged war crimes. I understand he may have been the Officer in Charge of a Russian Prisoner of War facility at some stage, and that this was probably a contributing factor. I will test my mother asap, with the view of imparting more information.

Finally, some of the other interesting items I "gave" away with the cuff titles were type written documents, written on a typewriter which included the SS symbol as a key strike. These documents were signed by people of note or authority after the war, the likes of the local 'Burgermeister' and so on. These documents that named my father as a member of the 'Grossdeutschland' corps, were required by him to prove, with witnessing signatures, that although he belonged to an SS unit, he was not a member of the Nazi Party. These documents were later instrumental in assisting him, with other documents, in achieving political refugee status in West Germany and later, in his application for assisted migration and citizenship in Australia.

Yes, there were grenadier units of the waffen SS, as well as panzer, artillery, infantry, military police and so on. I only wish now that I had been this interested in my family's military history in the past as I am now. Perhaps I would still be in possession of so many items of historical significance.

Regards, Lars T. Holden

[Don Bible]

Cuff titles

Mr. Holden, you cannot know how pleased I am to hear from you, and your telling us more about your father and grandfather and their service in WWII.
I worked in Germany for a few years in the mid 60s and have a special love for the country. Like you, my ancestors came from there many generations ago. They lived in Goersdorf, Alsace when it was part of Germany.
All best wishes to you and your mother.

[Lars Holden]

Don Bible....cuff titles

Thank you so much Mr. Bible.

I don't have many memories from the 'old country', as we emigrated when I was very young. Most of what I know is related to me by my mother and previously by my father and other relatives. Sadly, original the family name, von Krzyzankowski, is about to die out, and its history, documented back to the 15th Century will probably pass with me. Apart from my mother and one brother, there are no family members left whatsoever. More importantly I guess, no one really cares about the history except for me.

A bit more history, if you are interersted.....My mother's father was a fairly well to do business man, clothing manufacturer, in a town known as Grunberg (with an umlaut), now a Polish town by the name of Sczilona Gora (not sure of the spelling). He was well known for his anti Nazi stance during the war and because of this, he elected to stay where he lived, believing he would be safe, when the Russians came through. Wrong! He was a civilian, never a soldier but was dragged away and subjected to torture for several weeks. He was later released, emaciated and died not long thereafter. His family, including my mother and grandmother went into hiding to prevent being raped by the expeditionary and violent Cossack shock troops of the Russian army. My mother's younger, 16 year old brother, a member of the Hitler youth, was 'taken' by the Russians and never seen or heard of again. Her older bother, Ernest, was the rear gunner in a Stuka until he was shot down, surviving and, was taken prisoner by the US forces.....he always said that was his good luck. He is also in the land of the hearafter.

I have just been interrupted by a visitor, I'll sign off for now and add to the post later. I trust you and maybe others are interested in this story.

Regards, Lars T. Holden

[PaulW]

Hi Lars, I for one am very interested, I'm sure I'm not the only one. I look forward to your recollections.

Regards, Paul

[Lars Holden]

Paul W.....cuff titles

Back again and thank you Paul, I will attempt to to keep you and others interested.

Just after the war my father and my mother met and became close in the town where they then lived, Cottbus, an East German town/city until the Berlin wall came down in 1989. They married there and my father later joined the East German police and became a crime investigator. Some time later, under the communist regime he was informed by his superiors that, on investigation of his past, his service as a police officer was no longer required. He had done nothing wrong and was dedicated to his work; when he asked why he was being terminated, he was informed it was because his father, Colonel in the military police had been executed for alleged war crimes and therefore it was not tenable for him to remain in the service.

By this stage my parents had married and family concerns were raised because there were a lot of political kidnappings/disappearances taking place in the east, to facilitate ruthless adherence to the communist regime. The populace acted similarly to those under Nazi rule, insofar as informing on friends and associates regarding non-adherence to rules or anti-communist sentiment, and the like. My parents relatives had already fled to the west and subsequently my father decided to do likewise with his wife. This was now 1949. My father gained access to police headquarters in the east, covertly obtained numerous documents that would ensure him political asylum in the west, and then he grabbed his wife and they fled to the west via the last stages of the Berlin air lift. Later, in the west, still concerned about his family welfare, my father made two applications; one being to join the US military and become a US citizen and the other option was to seek another life in Australia. I understand his attitude was that whichever application was successful first, he would take that course. And of course the rest is Australian History.

Those documents mentioned in an earlier post, that identified my father as a member of Waffen SS in the Grossdeutschland Corps, but not as a member of the Nazi party, were helpful in gaining acceptance in Australia as a law abiding citizen.

The entire remaining family, a very small one at that, all eventually settled in Australia. Now, only my mother, my brother and I survive to tell the story.

One more post to follow........

Regards, Lars T. Holden

[Lars Holden]

Last post.....cuff titles

This will be my last post, as it were, unless there are questions that I would be pleased to answer, if I can.

I have some interesting photographs of family members during WW2, in various uniforms and so on. The one picture that really stands out in my memory is the one I discussed with my father many years ago. This picture was taken in 1943 and at the time my father was a student at a school known as 'The Adolf Hitler School For Boys' (I cannot speak German well enough to translate the name). The photograph depicts eleven young men, including my father and their training officer when that entire group was drafted into the 'Grossdeutschland' Corp, 'Brandenburg' regiment. The really poignant thing about this picture is that after the war, there were only two of these people left alive, my father and the man who was later best man at my parents wedding. That best man later died from the affects of cancer, so by the time I arrived in 1950, my father was the one and only person still alive from all those young men in that photograph.

Sadly, after all the war-time meaningful life experiences and traumas my father lived through, he died in an inglorious manner in 1969, in a terrible accident. I sometimes look at this picture, at all the young faces in their relative innocence, mainly 18 year old or thereabouts, and I experience feelings that cause tears to well up. Such a waste, put succinctly I think, by Marlon Brando in that incredible movie, Apocalypse Now......"The Horror".

There is more, but this is enough for now.

Regards, Lars T. Holden