KRETA cufftitle opinions

[Stormfighter]

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[Felix]

This last KRETA is an original and it exhibits the "classic" white base cloth as well.

//Felix

[Willi Z.]

The seller sent me photos of his KRETA cufftitle and the letter of authenticity from Detlev (see photos below). I do not believe his example is identical to mine as he says. His is a standard type constructed of a heavier white material and has a different weave correct?

Barry

Certainly a different Kreta and one that no one could possibly dispute. What does the seller say about this difference?

[besslein]

im not a big expert for kreta titles,but i was able years ago to get near hundred of kreta and afrika titles from a depot in my town,many diferent versions,but no one look like the one that has started this thread.

[Stormfighter]

Thanks Felix, that's just what I thought. I am still on the fence regarding whether my cufftitle is original. Believe me, I am not trying to defend it without having solid evidence.

How did you determine that the cufftitle with this variant white base material is postwar? I understand why collectors feel most comfortable with KRETA cufftitles having the "classic" white base material; however, I am quite sure that there wasn't just one maker of KRETA cufftitles, and these makers might have used different white base material. I am also sure that there was more than one maker of the 1957 version. Considering this, what makes my cufftitle a postwar version rather than a wartime variant?

If anyway else has an example of the type of KRETA cufftitle that initiated this thread, please post it.

Barry

[Felix]

Thanks Felix, that's just what I thought. I am still on the fence regarding whether my cufftitle is original. Believe me, I am not trying to defend it without having solid evidence.

How did you determine that the cufftitle with this variant white base material is postwar? I understand why collectors feel most comfortable with KRETA cufftitles having the "classic" white base material; however, I am quite sure that there wasn't just one maker of KRETA cufftitles, and these makers might have used different white base material. I am also sure that there was more than one maker of the 1957 version. Considering this, what makes my cufftitle a postwar version rather than a wartime variant?

If anyway else has an example of the type of KRETA cufftitle that initiated this thread, please post it.

Barry

Hello Barry!

Several members here have seen and handled original KRETA cuff bands and seen plenty more originals posted on this forum and in books to compare with. I have owned 4 KRETA cuffs myself, which is quite a small number, and only have one in my collection now. However I have spent quite a few hours studying what originals look like and their special traits. I think the KRETA cuff mainly exist in three different original versions with differences in the lettering, and there probably exists more. However they all share the same white cloth material regarding the texture of the weave.

I do not know all about KRETA bands, but if a collector like Mr Zahn, who has been around far longer than me (and collecting FJ and LW to a much much greater extent than me), has not seen this kind of tilted ribbed white cloth on a verified original KREAT before, it tells something. Also read what Besslein wrote about that huge find. From my own knowledge I have never seen this kind of white cloth on any original before. I have done my home work so to say.

When collecting third reich material one needs to know what originals look like in order not to get burnt spending money on fakes or questionable items. Knowledge is the key. It is good to have an open mind, but that must not overshaddow knowledge. It is about probability. If taking chances one will end up with far more fakes than if sticking to what is considered text book. Truth will catch up in the end when you tries to sell it.

So, what I try to say is that the accepted original KRETA cuff band has the correct white cloth material. I would advice you not to take chance on this cuff title because it "might" be original. Ask yourself why this cuff title would be the sole example with this kind of white cloth seen so far?

I can not say for sure it is a 57 version, but that is my humble opinion based on that the embroidery still looks rather ok. Several war time manufacturers continued to make insignias after the war and especially according to the 57 order to re-issue some war time awards and titles. They were also worn on uniforms post war. In several cases the early 57 versions were of good quality and close to war time produced examples. That is why I try to reason by logics and think that this is a 57 version.

Be smart when collecting because it is more fun to sit in the sofa looking at your item and know that you have a piece without questions, and it also pays off in the end.

//Felix

[Stormfighter]

Felix, thanks for your reply, which I greatly appreciated. I bought this cufftile from a German collector two years ago and never questioned its originality, especially because he said he obtained it directly from the German paratrooper veteran. Since I recently picked up a "textbook" example having an R.B.Nr., I decided to sell this example. As you know, I have written to the seller and he is defending it to the end. I am going to write him one more time and I'll let you know what he says. Indeed I am rather pissed because I paid $375 for this cufftitle two years ago.

Barry

[Stormfighter]

I have been corresponding with the seller and he is still adamant about the cufftitle being an original. He says that just because the cufftitle is not the "norm," it doesn't mean it's not original. Additionally, he says "there are so many versions." He uses the logic that because he acquired it from the veteran's daughter, it has to be original. I told him that there was no reason why the veteran could not have had a postwar version.

In another e-mail, he says that he can't be sure if the cufftitle is the same one he sold me (note that in his first e-mail, he said he remembered the cufftitle!!). I told him that I wasn't a liar or a schemer and that it is indeed the same cufftitle.

I have tried to avoid posting the seller's name, but I will post it if anyone is interested.

Barry

P.S. Below are the latest e-mails from the seller to me.



Hallo Barry,

Mein Ärmelband ist ein 100%iges Original. Ich
kenne den Träger. Ihr Ärmelband ist aus einem mir bekannten Haushalt.
Ich habe damals noch einige Sachen ersteigert. Alles war original. Nur
das Ihr Band nicht der "Norm" entspricht, heißt es nicht das es nicht
original ist. Es gibt so viele Versionen. Ich habe die Sachen von der
Tochter erhalten. Es ist keine 57er Version. Es ist original.

Gruß

Carsten


Wie gesagt, Sie brauchen mir das Band nicht zu schicken. Es ist etwas
spät, nach 2 Jahren. Ich weiß auch nicht ob es noch das selbe Band ist.
Aber das Band auf den Fotos ist und bleibt ein original.

Gruß

Carsten

[Waffenreich]

I'm interested. Thanks.

[QUOTE=Stormfighter;4862100]
I have tried to avoid posting the seller's name, but I will post it if anyone is interested.

Barry

[Afri]

After 2 years to claim the goods are not in properly. Why not before?

[Stormfighter]

The seller is Carsten Schmidt. I just learned that he is also a member of the WAF. Another WAF member sent me a PM last night and told me that his user name is Afri - take a look at the thread. It turns out that he is the only person saying that the cufftitle is real. Now as you see he is asking why it took me two years to discover that the cufftitle is not a wartime original. Since you are following the thread Carsten, here is my reply:

It took two years because I never asked anyone about its originality before. I purchased it from you and immediately put it away in my collection. Since I recently picked up a better example, I decided to sell this one and listed it on the WAF. That's when other WAF began a gentlemanly discussion about it and everyone except you is convinced it is a postwar example. If the situation were reversed, I would return your money, even if it was ten years later.