Warsaw Shield

[Chris Boonzaier]

I have seen another one, and most folks know how I hate em.

From a well known dealer, supposedly one of the 10 moulded (not stamped) trial models.
It has pins on the back.

Now, my question. If it is a moulded, prototype clunker... why does it have pins ?

Surely they were not needed until they had the final form and were making them to wear ?

Another question. Almost all German awards are made in Germany.
Cholm Shield-Germany
Narvik shield Ditto
etc. etc.

Why would warsaw shields be made in Warsaw, as some folks claim. Most of the troops that were there were long gone anyway, they may as well have made them in Paris.

Does anyone really believe in these ?

[Gordon Williamson]

I would be hard pushed to believe in any such piece. As you say, a prototype moulding would not need to have pins. Sounds totally suspect to me. A solid moulded piece would be way too heavy to wear on a sleeve. If it was only a design pattern, then production started using thin stampings, these would have pins, but a solid cast piece. Sounds wrong.
I'm not even aware that there is any actual documented proof that any were made, even as test samples. I could accept the design sketches as being real, but these actual shields are so crude that I find it hard to believe they'd have been made like that.

Personally, unless one had a shed load of documentary provenance I'd treat it like the Balkan shield - not a shred of reliable evidence to back up it's existence.

Gordon

[Ron Birch]

My understanding is there was a design but none were ever manufactured. Ron

[Chris Boonzaier]

Just a point of interest (after having thumbed through the catalog), he also has bronze and silver Balloon badges, 5th level of the navy small units combat badge, and the 25 Luft Ground warfare badge.
These are badges we have discussed in detail and have commented on when they would pop up on lists, saying they are so well made, and so without proof, that they could well be offered by a major dealer... and ...whammo.

[Prosper Keating]

An easier question is: which known dealer doesn't knowingly sell fakes as and when he can get away with it?

Okay...okay! I know! There are a few honest dealers out there...but they can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Django Reinhardt's hand at that!

Prosper Keating

[DJT]

Would this dealer be located in Hamburg Germany by any chance? If so I know who your talking about.

Yes this incredibly respected? hotshot dealer who offers a warsaw shield for sale not to mention various dodgy diamond badges sold me a repro afrikakorp cufftitle and various other fake cloth items in the not so recent past. Does that fill you with confidence? Well it should`nt.


Prosper, oh how your comments on counting the good dealers on the fingers of one hand are true....

Regards

Des

[Ron Birch]

He also has a Assman marked PAB, but I believe the pictures of the front and back are of two different badges,as you cannot see the mark on the obverse. Curious though, are we not to mention these dealers names if we think they have questionable items? Is it the forum policy ? Ron

[mott5ranch]

I hate this guessing game. Will someone spill the beans for us old guys at the wrinkle ranch? I would love to search for it but I get so easily distracted. Is this a "wise" guy with a "helmet", perhaps, if you get my pun? I thought he was OK.

[DJT]

Its Helmut Weitze. There I said it.....

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,
I had avoided mentioning a name because I wanted to concentrate on the example of all these badges, which a lot of people consider "iffy" and almost one offs... are now up for sale, after having being discussed many a time on the forum.

In Weitzes favour, these are all badges where either you believe... or you dont.
Noone has prooved them fake, although many suspect them... and noone has prooved them original.

Its basically a question of what you want to invest your money in, and what you PERSONALLY believe them to be.

[Chrvip68]

I'm with Chris last phrase:what you PERSONALLY believe them to be.
Personally not by a chance believe in these shields.
Also, without watching this dealer, is amazing that is the only one or from a few dalers who has in his invertory so many interesting,rare and questionable items.

[Gordon Williamson]

Here's another. Not a casting heavy enough to anchor a boat with, but a very lighweight zinc piece. The back is not hollow stamped but slightly concaved.
The detail is quite crisp and probably much nearer to what the real thing would have been like.
I still think however that the design is so crudely executed that it can't have been more than a a rough draft sketch. Think of how beautifully executed the eagle on the Cholm shield is then look at the Warschau. One would have thought they'd have finished tidying up the design work before making test samples ?



[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Gordon Williamson ]

[Chris Boonzaier]

Well, you Know Gordon... this late in the war ANYTHING went... including nylon flags and lead iron crosses

[Bill D.]

I will add two cents here, though my comments are only for purposes of discussion and information, and NOT an attempt to validate this shield as a period award. Here is what I can add: Some time ago I viewed one of these shields. It is in the collection of an individual who has been collecting German material since virtually the date on which the war ended. Unfortunately I do not know or, if I was told, I do not recall the provenance of the piece. What I do recall is that the shield appeared extremely well struck. More than that, it was mounted on a finnished wood plaque. The plaque had a 1945 date penciled on the back. The plaque itself was contained within a very well made wooden cassette. The plaque fit perfectly into the lower portion of the cassette, and the wooden lid fit over the top. The lid had a raised-out swastika in relief on it. The swastika was also wood and, more specifically, it was a part of the lid itself. In other words, it was not a seperate piece. In a superb bit of craftsmanship the wood of the lid had been planed down to create the swastika as an integral part of the cover, and then the cassette was finely finnished. I thought that if this was a period piece, then it was perhaps never intended as a "campaign shield" in the standard sense, as one to be worn on a uniform. Rather the shield may have been a component of a presentation "non-portable" award. Again, I emphasize that I am not arguing for the authenticity of this or any other "Warsaw Shield". I simply wanted to offer this information. If someone had an example of this shield and it was spurious, it would not be the first time that someone "gilded the lilly" to make a fake seem real simply by enhancing its appearance in some way.

[mott5ranch]

Bill,
I read your post in detail. If only you could obtain a picture. WOW. These discussions are why I read this forum. Thanks for your input!
Gary