Black Krim shield

[jacquesf]

I am interested in this black backing Krim shield, but need some better informed opinions on it. I have been trying to find a good one for quite awhile now. Many thanx . Jacques

[jacquesf]

back

[Tim B.]

Jacques,

This is the same shield Peter Lucas was offering in a Panzer grouping, along with the PAB and associated certificates. Not the usual type Krim, but what does Peter say about it?
Tim

[jacquesf]

Tim, yes it is the same shield. It has been available for awhile and I am not sure about it. It did not discuss it with Peter as I would like to get some opinions first. Jacques

[Tim B.]

Hi Jacques!

Okay, I wasn't sure if Peter was still selling it or if someone else had bought the group and tried to move the shield. I haven't visited his site for awhile, so I didn't want to trip on his sale or knowledge of this particular grouping.

Anyway, keeping in mind that there are not a lot of good references on shields out there to begin with, the only decent reference in this case (that I know of) currently is Sascha Weber's "The Krim Shield".

Weber's booklet does not show every manufactured type shield IMO, but does seem to show the vast majority of Krim shields that I have ever come across and this style of shield you are asking about is not shown in his book. Not a death sentence in and of itself, but it puts the shield in the "gotta have some faith" category.

As far as the details go...well, again IMO, they appear a bit flat to me, but some maker's are better than others and I would like to hear Peter's side as far as background on the piece. I know the piece (grouping) has set there for awhile and I think the shield is the piece that is most suspect, though I remember someone once commenting they did not like the PAB either. You could search for that old thread in this forum I think.

Bottom line, for me, I would pass unless there was something that was pretty concrete on provenance.

Best I can give you; good luck Jacques!
Tim

[jacquesf]

Tim, Thank you for the sound advice and reason. I guess I just needed some confirmation of my own feeling. Sometimes when one has been searching for an item for awhile your hart overtakes logic and that is very dangerous in this hobby. Jacques

[Tim B.]

Hi Jacques,

The forum must have been down yesterday as I couldn't log in and check for updates on this.

I wanted to say that, again, it's a shield that has die characteristics not commonly seen on these Krim shields and not listed in any reference that I know of.

However, with that said, that "could mean" that the shield is either rare or not original. That's why I said this piece is a bit of a leap of faith here.

The overall construction looks original, though we can't count on that trait by itself anymore as good fakes sure look original as well. The counter and devil's advocate to you is this...if it was fake, then why haven't we seen more of this style fake?

Again, I would have to know more on provenance and origins of this grouping before I would take a chance on it. Panzer backed (black cloth) pieces are not common, but they do exist.

Take care Jacques!
Tim

[DavidB]

Hey guys,

What is your opininon about this shield?

Best regards,
David

[DavidB]

Back.

[Tim B.]

David,

Looks like a very nice condition Krim by Friedrich Orth. I guess it's on Luft backing?
Tim

[DavidB]

Well thats the thing, I can't really decide what backing it is.
The cloth is a bit darker than in that first picture, I just took it in heavy sunlight.
Here are some close ups,but these almost makes it look darker than it is.

Can it be a panzer or does it have to be really really black for that?

/David

[DavidB]

Another

[Tim B.]

Dave,

You have to really take a close look at it under good lighting. Here's a shot of two of mine, one (FO) on Kriegsmarine backing and the other (JFS) on Panzer backing. You can clearly see the difference.
Tim

[Tim B.]

This one is dark, but it's clearly Luftwaffe.
Tim

[DavidB]

Heres a picture taken of it inside with flash.
Im leaning towards panzer on this..

/Dave