Pilot Observers Badge Question

[Larry Lipps]

Hi Guys, need some assistance here. The enclosed photo of a pilot observer’s badge is very similar to a badge on Mike Tucker’s site that is in his reproduction section. My question is whether or not there was an original manufacturer who based their badge on this pattern with the large opening between the eagle’s legs, or are all examples of this pattern reproductions. Most of the fakes I’m familiar with are based on copies of original examples, but in all of my reference material I couldn’t find an original of this pattern. Was the standard pilot’s badge eagle used on the PO badge or was there a different eagle available? Lastly, if a different eagle was used does anyone know which manufacturers switched eagles based on badge type and which used the standard eagle?

[Gene]

EVERYTHING is wrong with this badge. Ridiculous shape to the eagle (especially that HEAD!), a poor catch for the pin, crummy rivets, poor artificial aging, etc. The standard pilot badge was used as the basis for the design of the pilot observer badge but of course was colored differently, having a blued eagle and silvered wreath.

[Yuri D.]

I must agree with Gene about this one. And for the same reasons.

[Jody]

Hello Snigley,
I do not remember ever seeing an original pilot badge or original P/O badge looking like the example pictured above. I can not imagine a maker that would of produced a badge looking like that.

By the way, that style of fake has been around a long time. I remember seeing it in the late 70's.
Regards,
Jody

[Mike H.]

The opening between the eagle's legs is a true design, made pre-war by the Juncker firm. However, the original badge had a thinner wreath and smaller eagle. And I don't believe any pilot/observer grade was made in this manner. Also, the rivets on a true badge are round and never mashed flat - even toward the end. Juncker was the Tiffany's of WWII Germany, and the detail in their pieces are very rich and well defined.

[Jody]

Hi folks,
Juncker did produce a badge with a space between the legs (I had one), however, it was not shaped (the space) like that one.

If I recall correctly, Juncker had more of a round cut out. Even firms like Deumer, OM, Assmann, etc, that made some badges with cut outs did not have a space as big as the gap in the badge pictured.

The cut out in the above mentioned badge is so large it even takes out the tail feathers between the eagle's legs. I have never seen a gap that big on war-time produced badges.
Regards,
Jody

[Larry Lipps]

Thanks Guys, but I'd like to be sure I'm clear on the answer to the original question. I was not concerned with the authenticity of this badge but whether there were originals of this style. The Juncker badges from what I understand were hand enhancements to their standard eagle and had a much smaller cutout. This style however has the cutout between the legs as a part of the die strike. It seemed very odd to me that someone would make a reproduction of a style that never existed and was hopeful someone could provide an answer.

[Mike H.]

As Jody pointed out, the cut-out is much smaller on a real badge - the tailfeathers are not cut/removed. Also, bear in mind that the badges with the cut-out are smaller/lighter than non-cut badges! The cut badges are pre-war and the wreath is thinner and the eagle is smaller than war-time pieces.

As far as why someone would make a repro with such obvious differences, it's likely that they weren't worried about the details. Either because they didn't know about them, or just didn't care.

[Warren O]

Snigley,
The closest thing Ive found to this type of is on page 161 of Davis book Vol1 of Uniforms and Insignia of the Luftwaffe. Use loops to look at the photo closely of the Pilot Unteroffizier. Althogh not the same as your badge the Gap looks as long.
Warren