Announcement

**Gordon Williamson** · 08-31-2001, 03:19 AM

I don't think the "story" that goes with these 26 marked EK1s is particularly relevant. They did come out of Russia, but how the Russians got them-who knows. I don'tthink it really matters if they were from a train captured by Partisans or simply looted from the Berlin factory at the end of the war. All that matters is that they are genuine and that many (but by no means all of the hoard) were in almost perfect condition.
I have to say though that the prices being asked for them in the US was astonishing. The Dealer in Europe who got hold of them was selling for around $220, a very reasonable price.

Gordon

**Ron Birch** · 08-31-2001, 10:50 AM

seagullmc-- if you have one with four windows and are happy with it thats good. And I am sure there are some that don't like these badges. I would think that in missing one of the windows it would be a flaw in the making of the badge. But to call it a second pattern is in my book a used car salesmans attitude. But this is just my opinion and I am always willing to be enlightend on the subject with any information. Thanks Ron

**Mike H.** · 08-31-2001, 11:26 AM

"Bridge Windows"

While this is one of the hallmarks of a fake, there are also some genuine Schwerin High Seas Fleet Badges that have only four bridge windows. The fifth window is only a 'shadow' - that is, you can see where the die struck the piece, but not hard enough to leave the window as it should be. If one does not know the other characterists to look for, stick with a widely known reputable dealer (I shant name them, but we know who they are) that says it's real.

**Ron Birch** · 08-31-2001, 01:31 PM

I'll say again to call it a second pattern is crazy- a flaw in the process would be more apt. And Mike there are many people who read this site and if you feel the people you deal with have done you great service don't go and say" we know who they are" without saying so. I'm sure many readers of this site who are not members would appreciate it. And also throw customers to the dealers you buy from, I'm sure they would like this also. So far I been happy with Detlev and Tucker and still wonder through Manions. And for me to have recommendations from people on this forum as to other dealers they have good luck with would be great for me and others to check out .

With respect Ron Birch

**Mike H.** · 08-31-2001, 01:39 PM

Ron --

Point taken: Detlev Niemann, Helmut Weize, Kai Winkler. Also Jamie Cross, Bill Shea, and Gailen David.

I have not heard of the HSFB having more than 1 version... The bridge window was a mis-strike on some Schwerin pieces.

**Ron Birch** · 08-31-2001, 02:19 PM

Mike I appreciate your reply and have seen the sites you have posted except Helmut Wietz (I hope I spelled that right)

But I am sure others who read this column will also visit these sites and maybe find something they like.

Thanks again, Ron

**Greg S** · 08-31-2001, 02:21 PM

Easy Ron, I believe to point all the good sources out everytime and forget one would be a bigger disservice. On the forum the members do inquire and feed back is given at any given time about dealers and those of us who have been on this site do know who the dealers are. We are all willing to point other members in the right direction.

**kurt** · 08-31-2001, 02:25 PM

A new day! I see the topic is changed so I will try to return it. I question 'dealer' who must add the story in order to sell the object...why is it not just simply a IC and this is my prize?? Instead of ' Bandits stole and preserved these for collectors some 60 years off. These fables have been for uniforms, many badges, k98 zf41 rails and seems continuous. I think it odd that people buried, burned, dumped 'useable' equipments but yet hoarded useless (for the time) trinkets. Discussions for this?
Kurt

**Mike H.** · 08-31-2001, 02:45 PM

Why does anybody keep anything? Each has their own reasons... I'm glad (in this case) that someone did, regardless of how they came to have them. While the 'story' may grow as Pinnocchio's nose, the bottom line is that respected authorities in the field have deemed them (EK.1 '26') legitimate - and that, in the end, is what is important.

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Mike H. ]

**Ron Birch** · 08-31-2001, 03:02 PM

greg--For Mike to list some dealers he is happy with does not do a "diservice" to other dealers. He is just stating who he deals with and I for one will check out a site or two on his recommendations. And I am also sure others may not agree with his "list". Or some of the dealers I have bought from, and is not percieved I am sure as a final and complete list of dealers who are legitimate. You also could have added a name or two or three............ Not that I don't see the point of your posting, but I am not aware of this forum of having a complete "list" that individual members are happy with. But back to kurts question of having new "discoveries" is something to be leary about,I have to agree with him. with respect, Ron "easy" Birch

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: ronbme ]

**Mike H.** · 08-31-2001, 03:32 PM

Okay - I'll say it. Education is the most important key to collecting. Whether it be medals, stamps, whatever. Knowledge is power. I am by NO means an expert, but I do attempt to educate myself. Books, websites, questions to legitimate sources... I know a little more than some, many know more than me, and some have forgotten more than I'll ever learn. That's the point of this Forum, to share this information - I have learned a great deal from the contributors of this Forum! Some dealers/people are not to be trusted. Some stories/histories are to be questioned. But there are lighthouses in this fog we call militaria collecting - I have listed several. There are more - Gordon Williamson's books are treasure troves of detailed information. Detlev Niemann has a very useful book, and there are indeed more. However, discounting a piece(s) merely because a questionable dealer hedges his bet with a 'wild' story, could cost the collector a worthy piece. Some people are not students of militaria, they may just want a piece for some reason. These people don't want to be taken advantage of, so they ask questions - very admirable and wise. Some of us take some basic knowledge for granted, forgetting that we were once beginners, too - patience should be shown, as it was for/to us. Eugene's piece is likely real. Schwerin Flotten badges did sometimes have only 4 windows. There are quirks to many other pieces. Sometimes their story may seem a bit fantastic, but that does not (necessarily) mean that the piece is fake. Research before a purchase will help guide the purchase - and sometimes, truth is stranger than fiction

**Mark S.** · 09-01-2001, 12:23 AM

Bridge windows

The problem with these 4 window HSF badges, is that more people know about the fake ones than they do the real ones.

A discussion about these badges back in the "old forum" brought the conclusion that the fakes were more than likely made using a real 4 window as the master. What was a weak strike on the original became obliterated completely on the fake. Of course this is only hypothosis, but it seems to make sense.

Even though I know there are real 4 window HSF badges, I personally dont have any desire to own one, just because they are so controversial. I want my badges to be textbook, if possible, with little to no variation from the norm.

**Seagullmc** · 09-01-2001, 02:17 AM

Ron,
Sorry I'm touchy about my HSF. This damn hobby guarantees paranoia! I spend more energy worrying about being taken than I do enjoying my collection. On occasion, I will leap out of bed to pursue my latest repro theory on the net - that's sick BS! I looked at the 26 marked IC but I couldn't make the leap. They look too good so I don't have one. Not a sound reason.
On the other hand, if 100% of the product on the market was undeniably good what fun is that? I have tried to analyze my interest in the past and this is what I have come up with:
1)It is a monumental period in history
2)There is a quaintness about the period
3)Germany had the best equipment and by far the most interesting awards
4)The 3rd Reich has been eliminated
5)The thrill of the chase for genuine in a sea of fakery

The truth is that my drivers are 3 & 5. Each time I realize I have been had I seriously consider giving it up. But in the end I stand up, dust off and give it another go.

ps - please call me Colin. I am not related to seagulls. The handle is a long, boring story.

Cheers to all. This is fun!
Best regards
Colin

**Ron Birch** · 09-01-2001, 11:12 AM

Collin i guess the thrill of the chase is fun. Mike you have done your research and gathered valued opinions and are happy with that, and thats good! I think Kurt main question was not the item itself but the stories behind the item for sale to entice the sale of the item. And I would guess watch the stories grow right before your eyes is part of the problem he see's in the new "discoveries." respectfully, Ron

**Garynh2** · 09-01-2001, 02:45 PM

Just to toss my two cents in. I'm a new collector to WWII German and have purchased a number of pieces over the last 3 or 4 months. I've found out over the last few weeks that the first 4 pcs I purchased, EK1, EK2, 1914 EK2, and a bronze CCC, are all repros. I'm in the process now of trying to recoup something on the EK2 and CCC from the "dealer" that sold them to me. I purchased before I was aware of these forums and the help they provide. If I'd been here first and asked the proper questions......

Bill Shea I've met and purchased from, Tom Wittman also, and I've heard of the other reputable dealers and will buy strictly from them in the future. No more Ebay specials or dealer I've found by Web searching.

These forums, and the information provided are invaluable for the new collector.

Thanks to all, Gary

Announcement

Need some EK1 info.

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread