Interesting KVK1X - repro?

[Frank Heukemes]

I purchased this KVK 1 with swords in 1979. Since then, I showed to two experienced German collectors that gave it the thumbs up, but who had not seen one of those before. Showed it to them in the mid eighties. I still have my doubts. The detail on the obverse is right, pin holder and catch cast together with the cross itself is ok too. What is confusing as you can see is the pin itself. Not so much the form but the differing metal. The pin bears a maker´s mark, which is very hard to make out. It is possibly "4". This maker (Steinhauer & Lück) does usually not have KVKs looking like this one, but maybe it is another one digit maker´s mark, it is basically illegible.
Base material is Zink, I do not have the exact weight and measurements at hand, but they seem to be ok. If this is a repro, it must be a quite early one.
Your opinions are welcome...

Cheers, Frank

[img]http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0NAAAADkTVf7sx54PC60JIoji2FyYOju!NVt!0q1mMIr5KEmui Ocv2MEx3U2b1nfF2YaLqB3*nx6*VVM5ztZu6w/kvkcopyvs.jpg[/img]

[Gordon Craig]

Frank,

There are a number of thing which I would like to comment on re your KVK as compared with the one in my collection. You judge for your self.

1-The sword blades don't look right. Mine has the centre of the swords raised above the surface and runs as an actual line the full length of the blade.

2-The finish on the pebbled surface and on the raised portion around it appear the same. On mine the pebbled surface is a dull silver while the raised part around it has a shiny surface.

3-The handles of the swords don't look right.

4-The pin, as you point out is the wrong material and the wrong shape. The hinge pin seems to have been rather roughly hammered into place. Both ends of the pin on mine are flush with the hinge.

5-The back view looks rough on the edges. When I look at mine the edges are clearly defined.

Sorry that I can not post a picture. I have not mastered that yet.

Regards,

Gordon Craig

[Bill M]

--Pins were usually made of a different material than the badge and it's probably a replacement pin anyway.
--The curious thing to me is that if it is a '4' marked badge, it shares the same cast-in hinge and catch features with a '4' marked IAB that I and a few others here possess. Hmmm...
--It also appears that the bottom spikes of the cross are assymetrical. It is not as noticable on the obverse as it is on the reverse.
--I wouldn't count this one out, although it doesn't appear to be as well made as others.

[Warren O]

Hey Frank,
Go back to stone mint and compare with Tims #4 KVKI. Same pommels on the sword ,cast hinge, although your pin is rather crude it does have the basic shape of S&L.
Warren

[Luft62]

Owing to the lack of finishing - note the very rough edges - and the difference of the pin material - I think this badge may have been actually completed after the war from wartime stocks.

I have heard of unfinished badges that were picked up - perhaps from the factory floor or from left-over parts - after the war and completed with whatever parts (in this case the pin) that were lying around.

Apart from the pin it seems to match up 100% with my S & L KVK 1kl or at least as far as basic construction goes.
The major difference is what appears to be a complete lack of finishing.

Regards,
Tim

[Prosper Keating]

I think Tim's hit the nail on the head. I remember these KVK1s all over the place at the end of the 1970s. I was reliably informed - by one of the dodgier people I knew then - that they were 'genuine' but from stocks of unfinished KVK1s. Someone simply had pins made and fitted and, occasionally, passed a file over them to clean the edges up before selling them to dealers who then sold them to…us. The same exercise was carried out in relation to numbered assault badges, which is why you sometimes see a '75' or a '100' without any evidence at all of any finish ever having been applied. You'll notice that these KVK1s have never had any finish applied. However, some dealers had them plated, which in turn looks odd, early war quality plating and buffing of the high points on a late war monkey metal cross with fuzzy details. By the way, the pins were often in bronze or brass, so they retained their silver finish long after the zink 'ate' its finish but they were by no means as crude as this pin. Hardly surprising…as it was probably made in someone's garage.

Prosper

[Frank Heukemes]

Thanks for your comments, sounds reasonable and meets my thoughts. I always thought the "body" of the cross to be genuine, but this needle very odd.

Gordon, The middle line of the sword´s blades IS actually raised and it runs on the whole length of the blade. Your comment #2 is due to lack of finish, this one is just plain zink. If it ever had a finish, which is doubtful because some of it should still be caught in the pebbles or anywhere else, it is gone. I am well aware that there are much more "refined" looking KVKs, I also own some.
Bill M´s remarks about his "4" marked IAB are interesting. Does anybody have an explanation for that maker´s mark?

Prosper, I almost expected that you must have seen this one before, since I bought it in 1979 in London, England on a fleamarket. Probably England is the origin of those refitted pin constructions.
These two experienced German collectors said it is a very late war example, when they sometimes didn´t apply finish anymore and used some leftover material for pins. Well, "could" have been this way, as W.C. Stump likes to conclude with Ripley´s slogan: "Believe It Or Not". I tend more towards your theory as well, Tim & Prosper although the first one would be more "charming".

At least I hope this was interesting to keep this special KVK1 in mind. Not really a repro, but well, probably something worth upgrading.

Anybody who knows more about the "4", your comments are very appreciated.

Cheers, Frank

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Munich ]

[Kecon]

Hi Frank
Your KVK looks post war silver painted.
Never saw one of this type with any finish left. Darn zinc sucks it up. I have two of these in stock. Both are sans any finish except on brass pin. Had several of these over the years. All marked with 4 in a box. They could be had for $20 fifteen years ago. Today they usually bring 50 - 60 $'s in my area. If you have Chris Ailsby's neat little book on awards this cross is pictured on page 55. I always believed these were genuine late war pieces. Still do!

ps If thats post war paint on yours, I'd just remove it.
Happy holidays to all!

Ken C.

[Frank Heukemes]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for your comment. It is just the picture, there is no paint or finish of any sort on this item. It is just plain zink. Maybe somebody polished it sometime, but definitely no paint there. Unfortunately I do not have Ailsby´s book, most of mine are of German origin. If you could provide pictures of your "4" crosses, possibly with the box, it would be great!

Cheers, Frank

[Kecon]

Hi Frank
Sorry I can't post pictures of my KVK's. No camera set-up. Anyway your pin is correct for that cross. You may be able to raise the number with a black felt pen. Just ink box, then wipe over lightly. Your pin looks well worn , so this may not work. I'll bet it's a #4.
Hope this helps!

Good luck.

Ken C.