Finding a 'original' 57 rk or kvk rk?

[WRanG]

Hi guys, i have been considering investing in a 'old' 1957 RK or a 1957 Kvk RK. As a filler to my collection.
I initially thought that it would be no problem to go fetch one, but i cant seem to understand what i am looking at when seeing one, how old is it?
I would like it to be a S&L, and i seem to have found out that it is a type 1 or 2 that im looking for, as they are the 3 piece constructed pieces, type 1 being the oldest with magnetic core that most vets would have used, and type 2 is with a non magnetic core from the 60-70's ?

Can anyone point me towards a good one ? there seems to be quite a few at ebay but i have no idea how old they actually are.

Ebay.de have this one with article: 201938852366
and ebay.com have this one: 311879485030

are they any good ?

[Matthieu]

This one ( 201938852366 ) is good - magnetic 2nd pattern core by St&L

Can't seem to find the other one you posted ( sold or wrong item number )

Mathijs

[WRanG]

This one ( 201938852366 ) is good - magnetic 2nd pattern core by St&L

Can't seem to find the other one you posted ( sold or wrong item number )

Mathijs

Thanks
no idea what is up with the other one.. Here is the full link:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/311879485030...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Mustangstje]

No idea what is up with the other one.

Second one is a bad 'Morigi fake', run away.

Regards,
Nick

[WRanG]

Second one is a bad 'Morigi fake', run away.

Regards,
Nick

Thanks

what about the type 1 and 2 frames of the S&L ?
Does it fit that the type 1 frames is the earliest, vet worn pieces? thus more expencive than the type 2 ? (and is that one indeed from the 60-70's)

[Nigel N]

For S&L, there are type 1 and type 2 cores, the 1's being the earlier with magnetic core, the earliest 2's also had a magnetic core until the mid 70's!
There are B, C & D type frames, B & C can be found with both pattern of core, while the D frame is later and found with the type 2 core!!
Its a little bit complicated when you are first learning, but if you look through some older threads here, you will pick up much useful info!!
Most vets did buy their RK's in the early 57 period, so most vet owned pieces are the B frame/ 1st pattern combo! But not all!!!!!!!!
S&L made many more RK's than were ever needed by vets, and many were sold on the collectors market, so even an early piece is not necessarily vet owned!!!
Deumer also made the 57 RK, using the old wartime Schickle frame dies coupled with a new 1st pattern core, these are slightly larger than an S&L, and also scarcer, meaning a higher price!!
-Nigel

[WRanG]

For S&L, there are type 1 and type 2 cores, the 1's being the earlier with magnetic core, the earliest 2's also had a magnetic core until the mid 70's!
There are B, C & D type frames, B & C can be found with both pattern of core, while the D frame is later and found with the type 2 core!!
Its a little bit complicated when you are first learning, but if you look through some older threads here, you will pick up much useful info!!
Most vets did buy their RK's in the early 57 period, so most vet owned pieces are the B frame/ 1st pattern combo! But not all!!!!!!!!
S&L made many more RK's than were ever needed by vets, and many were sold on the collectors market, so even an early piece is not necessarily vet owned!!!
Deumer also made the 57 RK, using the old wartime Schickle frame dies coupled with a new 1st pattern core, these are slightly larger than an S&L, and also scarcer, meaning a higher price!!
-Nigel

Thank you very much Nigel, it does sound a bit complicated... Time to dig through the posts

[Mustangstje]

1st pattern and 2nd pattern refers to the core being used and 'B', 'C' or 'D' to the St&L frame. The usual combinations for 57er RKs by St&L (the odd piece not included) are;

*1st pattern 'B'-frame --> 1957 - early 1960's
(large/thin oakleaves, magnetic core, dent row, non dipping öse)

*1st pattern 'C'-frame --> early 1960's - mid 1960's
(large/thin oakleaves, magnetic core, dent row or not, dipping öse)

*2nd pattern 'C'-frame --> mid 1960's - mid/late 1970's
(smaller/thick oakleaves, earlier magnetic or later unmagnetic core , dent row or not, dipping öse)

*2nd pattern 'D'-frame --> mid/late 1970's - present...
(smaller/thick oakleaves, unmagnetic core, usually terrible paint job, sandblasted frame, dipping donut-shaped öse, "/" or smooth outer corners, dent row absent)


There is of course a lot of speculation when it comes to dating them, I hope I don't get shot down by my colleagues in this section. I've highlighted the one you are looking at above.

Regards,
Nick

[Ghocking]

I think it's now known that both types of cores were issued early on, the vast majority of Vet attributed crosses do tend to be Schikle or B frame S&Ls, but attributed so called 2nd pattern are also found.
First pattern cored kcs do command higher prices for sure!

[Nigel N]

Forgot to mention the KVK RK
They are much rarer than the EK RK, and early examples don't turn up too often!!
-Nigel