dating ribbon bars

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

Just a few humble ribbon bars for the purpose of asking a question. Is it possible to estimate production dates for ribbon bars by their hardware and/or ribbon features? If so, how would you date these four and what are the salient features in that respect?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Skyhawk]

Hi Norm,

Ribbon bars are super interesting as this was what was worn by BW serving vets on a daily basis. I think in dating ribbon bars several items should be considered:

1) Quality of the ribbon cloth (UV negative?) and attached devices. The earliest ribbon bars have ribbons that are shorter vertically, and much thinner than the later ribbons. The width of the ribbons is more consistent, than the height or thickness during the various time periods. The later ribbons more resemble the type of ribbons used by the US Military during that time period. Similiar to the slide onto the bar type ribbons as opposed to sew the ribbons together to make a ribbon bar early type.

2) Catch: The earliest have a simple "C" catch. Late ribbon bars often have some type of locking catch. Did I mention smell?? I have several early bars which smell like a thousand old cigars! Kind of hard to fake that smell!

3) Is there backing cloth, and if present, is it sewn or glued? The earlies bars seem to have some type of sewing, and can be found with and without backing cloth (Example A).

4) If multiple rows, are the rows attached into a single piece or is each row of the set separate? Seems a descent number of early BW members liked to have each row as a separate piece. I know Erich Hartmann used unattached rows of ribbons. He sometimes even switched the position of the rows based upon photo evidence. I have the ribbon bar of RK holder Eberhard Pohl who served in the BW into the mid 60's. He used unattached rows of ribbons. The backing is red cloth sewn to the ribbon cloth. A simple "C" catch is used. The ribbons are vertically short, and very thin.

I like to see "vertically shorter" ribbon bars with either a sewn backing cloth or sewn without a cloth. A simple "C" catch without any locking. UV negative ribbons are preferred, however many bars contain a mixture of UV negative and positive. Nice, detailed devices on the correct ribbon are good too. The later ribbons often have the gold colored metal on the reverse edges. Is the order of precedence or as awarded date precedence correct? I have seen both precendences used on vet bars. I think vets who served in the BW have the most "correct" bars while vets who pinned them on civilian attire can be found with quite a "hodgepodge" of ribbons/precedence. I have seen some late ribbon bars that were vertically short, however they had the gold metal edging on the reverse.

My guess is, A is the earliest, followed by B, and then C. Not sure on D as it is Austrian. The tough thing is often the case with 57er production, components where used across the various time periods. Sure wish I could smell the bars!!

A fun thread, hopefully many will add their thoughts!

Best,

Jeff

[Tom B]

Hi Norm,

Ribbon bars are super interesting as this was what was worn by BW serving vets on a daily basis. I think in dating ribbon bars several items should be considered:

1) Quality of the ribbon cloth (UV negative?) and attached devices. The earliest ribbon bars have ribbons that are shorter vertically, and much thinner than the later ribbons. The width of the ribbons is more consistent, than the height or thickness during the various time periods. The later ribbons more resemble the type of ribbons used by the US Military during that time period. Similiar to the slide onto the bar type ribbons as opposed to sew the ribbons together to make a ribbon bar early type.

2) Catch: The earliest have a simple "C" catch. Late ribbon bars often have some type of locking catch. Did I mention smell?? I have several early bars which smell like a thousand old cigars! Kind of hard to fake that smell!

3) Is there backing cloth, and if present, is it sewn or glued? The earlies bars seem to have some type of sewing, and can be found with and without backing cloth (Example A).

4) If multiple rows, are the rows attached into a single piece or is each row of the set separate? Seems a descent number of early BW members liked to have each row as a separate piece. I know Erich Hartmann used unattached rows of ribbons. He sometimes even switched the position of the rows based upon photo evidence. I have the ribbon bar of RK holder Eberhard Pohl who served in the BW into the mid 60's. He used unattached rows of ribbons. The backing is red cloth sewn to the ribbon cloth. A simple "C" catch is used. The ribbons are vertically short, and very thin.

I like to see "vertically shorter" ribbon bars with either a sewn backing cloth or sewn without a cloth. A simple "C" catch without any locking. UV negative ribbons are preferred, however many bars contain a mixture of UV negative and positive. Nice, detailed devices on the correct ribbon are good too. The later ribbons often have the gold colored metal on the reverse edges. Is the order of precedence or as awarded date precedence correct? I have seen both precendences used on vet bars. I think vets who served in the BW have the most "correct" bars while vets who pinned them on civilian attire can be found with quite a "hodgepodge" of ribbons/precedence. I have seen some late ribbon bars that were vertically short, however they had the gold metal edging on the reverse.

My guess is, A is the earliest, followed by B, and then C. Not sure on D as it is Austrian. The tough thing is often the case with 57er production, components where used across the various time periods. Sure wish I could smell the bars!!

A fun thread, hopefully many will add their thoughts!

Best,

Jeff

Thanks for the info Jeff. and I agree an interesting thread ! Tom

[Nigel N]

I have to disagree on the method's of attaching the backing cloth!!
For a long time I believed the glued type were later that the sewn type, but Luud showed several examples a few years ago, from his collection, that included ribbonbars with glued on backing cloths, that were actually early period, some with the original receipts of purchase, so that seems to be no sure fire way of dating them???
Possibly different retailers/assemblers, used differing methods???
The catches, hinges and pins are also a bit of a minefield, with so many variants!!
The mini devices and, to a lesser extent the ribbons themselves, may be the better way????
Not easy though IMO!!!
-Nigel

[Skyhawk]

Hi,

First, I agree with 57er style ribbon bars being a minefield.

My overall point is ribbon bars can somewhat be dated by perhaps era, but within an era is very tough. Can a '59 produced bar be distinguished from a '65 produced bar? Probably not, unless the bar is from a provenance group, and it is known when the bar was worn. The other method being as Nigel mentioned having a receipt showing when the bar was originally purchased. When did the majority of Wehrmacht vets serve in the BW and wear ribbon bars on their uniforms.... late 50's to the early 70's.

That being said, we should be able to assign "most" ribbon bars to a wide period. Possibly Early, Late, and Modern.

For instance, if a ribbon bar glows like a Christmas tree, no backing cloth, has gold metal edging, "tall" thick ribbons, and a locking catch it is probably not from the early period.

However, if a ribbon bar has UV negative thin/short ribbons, sewn backing, a simple "C" catch, and that "wonderful" smell, it is probably from the early period.

Ribbon bars are definitely tougher to date in the period '57-'74 than 57er war badges produced during that period. More study of this area needs to be done!

Please have a look at this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=741131&page=8

Best,

Jeff

[Nigel N]

Its also worth remembering, that not all ribbonbars were worn by serving BW.... many vets still had ribbonbars madeup to wear on civilian clothing at re-unuions etc. but never joined the Bundeswehr!
-Nigel

[Skyhawk]

Its also worth remembering, that not all ribbonbars were worn by serving BW.... many vets still had ribbonbars madeup to wear on civilian clothing at re-unuions etc. but never joined the Bundeswehr!
-Nigel

Very true and these often are the most interesting bars based upon types of ribbons, and the order in which the ribbons are attached! Even ribbons for the "flower war" medals were sometimes included. The civilian vets definitely "free styled" some of their ribbon bars!!

Best,

Jeff

[Nigel N]

You are spot on there Jeff!!! I also like those "unofficial" type bars, both ribbon and medal!!
Our Austrian cousins in particular seemed to love to go their own way on these type of things!!
-Nigel