Just a thought......

[Steve 5]

Gentlemen, as a result of our collecting interests being continually put under the spotlight by certain individuals, I repeat a post made by another collector on another forum, nicely put I think.....................
"New pieces (official or sanctioned) are not fake or reproduction. They are legitimate pieces that have been produced at a different time, thus a 1914 Iron Cross produced in 1939 is just as official as that from the time. So an Iron Cross 1914 produced in 1960 is just from another period"........... I feel this to be true of any countries medals/awardsre struck (officially or sanctioned) for either veterans or collectors.... What are your thoughts on this ?
Prost ! Steve.

[Alex W.]

Steve, I completely agree with you - enough said IMO

Best regards,
Alex

[Brig]

Gentlemen, as a result of our collecting interests being continually put under the spotlight by certain individuals, I repeat a post made by another collector on another forum, nicely put I think.....................
"New pieces (official or sanctioned) are not fake or reproduction. They are legitimate pieces that have been produced at a different time, thus a 1914 Iron Cross produced in 1939 is just as official as that from the time. So an Iron Cross 1914 produced in 1960 is just from another period"........... I feel this to be true of any countries medals/awardsre struck (officially or sanctioned) for either veterans or collectors.... What are your thoughts on this ?
Prost ! Steve.

As a collector of 57ers, TR, and US...I have a somewhat rounded perspective. Seems kind of dumb for a TR collector to bash on 57er collectors...a large chunk of non-collectors certainly look at TR collectors in a less than favorable light

I've posted in the past here how 57ers were, either intentionally or unintentionally, valuable in the national and individual healing process of the veterans who earned them. Kind of callous to sling mud on that if you're a TR collector. At least non-German collectors can argue that it represents a darker era in German history.

There seems to be a lot more animosity from TR collectors towards 57er collectors than, say, WWI & WWII collectors vs Vietnam or even modern GWOT collectors. I don't get it, who cares who collects what? My buddy collects Star Wars figures, you don't see me rolling my eyes at him.

[speedytop]

Hi Steve,

(official or sanctioned)

I can only repeat my answer from the Imperial Militaria Forum:

Where can I find a primary official source, that it was "official or sanctioned", to produce an EK 1914 in 1960?

Definitely not in the German law from 1957.
It was and is not the purpose of the law, to produce copies/repros (or whatever you want to call these not original pieces).

Uwe

[Norm F]

There seems to be a lot more animosity from TR collectors towards 57er collectors than, say, WWI & WWII collectors vs Vietnam or even modern GWOT collectors. I don't get it, who cares who collects what? My buddy collects Star Wars figures, you don't see me rolling my eyes at him.

Hi Guys,

I hesitate to weigh in on this controversy, but I have to say that I don't perceive any "animosity" towards 57er collectors at all and I think one must be careful to avoid divisive descriptions.

There can be healthy debate as to what defines "official and sanctioned" replacement awards, but that's not "bashing" and I think it's a mistake to interpret that there exists a significant fraction of collectors who would denigrate the collecting of '57-form awards in general. Even when Uwe raises a point for debate in his comments I do not perceive this as saying anything against the collecting of '57-form awards (or whatever one wants to collect).

There may be occasional individuals who make off-hand belittling wisecracks once in a while (either intentionally or by unfortunate wording), but this occasionally happens to any type of collectors, not just '57 collectors, and should not be interpreted as a significant movement.

In his post, Steve, refers to "certain individuals spot-lighting our interests" not to any sort of "anti-57 movement", so we shouldn't over-interpret his intentions for this thread; I think we should limit our comments to a collegial debate as to what is "official or sanctioned" and not read this as an attack on 57-collectors.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I can only repeat my answer from the Imperial Militaria Forum:

Where can I find a primary official source, that it was "official or sanctioned", to produce an EK 1914 in 1960?

Definitely not in the German law from 1957.
It was and is not the purpose of the law, to produce copies/repros (or whatever you want to call these not original pieces).

Uwe

I haven't read the comments referred to in the Imperial forum, but Uwe's comment above appears to be factual.

If a 65 y.o. WW1 veteran in 1960 decides to buy a 1960 production EK 1914 in 1960, then that is a replacement award with meaning to that veteran and his family. That may not make it "official" but neither does it make it less desirable to collectors of awards made in the 1960s, nor less meaningful when considered in that context. If, however, that same award is sold on eBay as a "genuine WW1 production" EK, then it's a fraud and a fake and an object of scorn to a collector of WW1 artifacts. Context is everything.

Thus two different individuals looking at the same award from opposite frames of reference could conceivably clash in a discussion on that award. Neither is incorrect within their individual frames of reference, and such discussion should never be misinterpreted as a personal attack on one's taste in collecting.

Whether you call 1960's made (non-57-form) awards "reproductions" or a "replacement awards", there's a legitimate interest and market for them. But at the same time it's important to keep them in context and not confuse them with wartime antiques so that nobody is mislead. And I don't think anyone expects to see an S&L 1960-made EK 1914 sold for the same price as a 1916-made battlefield awarded family heirloom -- even if they have equal sentimental meaning to the grand-son who inherited them from their veteran grandfather.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Skyhawk]

Hi,

Always interesting to read everyones thoughts!
I have to say I enjoy the challenge of the "hunt" as a 57er/57 era collector. Using Norm's 1914 EK example, try this exercise. Search the web and see how many WW1 produced 1914 style EK1 you can find for sale in a day's time. Now, do the same execise for an S&L produced in the 50's-60's replacement, copy, or whatever you want to call them 1914 style EK1. I bet on most days you will not be able to find even one of the S&L produced pieces. How much does rarity, impact desirability, even with 57era produced pieces?

Collect what you enjoy and have a great time with the hobby!

Looking at the below, which would you value more in your collection?

Best,

Jeff

[Nigel N]

Just think of 57ers as "private purchase" pieces!!!!!
-Nigel

[Skyhawk]

Just think of 57ers as "private purchase" pieces!!!!!
-Nigel

I have certainly puchased all of mine "privately" !

Best,

Jeff

[Nigel N]

I have certainly puchased all of mine "privately" !
Best,

Jeff

Well.... there you go!!!!
-Nigel

[Brig]

Honestly I don't understand the hang up, and I agree with Norm. If the vet buys it, it's a replacement. They still strike WWII campaign medals and sell them at the PX. They are official government contracted medals, obviously not period, but replacements meant to be worn to reunions, functions, and for burials

And Norm, I didn't mean to imply there was any sort of 'movement'. I merely meant that there seems to be more of it on the German side of the hobby

[Norm F]

Honestly I don't understand the hang up, and I agree with Norm. If the vet buys it, it's a replacement. They still strike WWII campaign medals and sell them at the PX. They are official government contracted medals, obviously not period, but replacements meant to be worn to reunions, functions, and for burials

And Norm, I didn't mean to imply there was any sort of 'movement'. I merely meant that there seems to be more of it on the German side of the hobby

Hi Brig,

Thanks for the clarification.

Perhaps the one distinction between the U.S. and German sides of the hobby relates to what you mentioned - in the U.S. they are official government contracted medals. My father-in-law was in the U.S. Navy and got official replacement U.S. campaign awards in the 1990s. But I believe Uwe is correct that in Germany there is no such official contract. S&L chose to make awards to fill a market; these products functioned as replacement awards but as far as we can tell it was without any official government sanction (aside from the '57-form awards). There may have been tacit sympathy but no ostensible contract.

To some that is a subtle distinction while to others it's major -- that's just personal perceptions. But I think what matters to all observers is whether or not there is any attempt to deceive regarding the period of production.

The terminology that is used seems to enhance these debates. Objectively, the term "reproduction" is most accurate since it applies no value judgement. The terms "fake" and "replacement awards" are more subjective since both make assumptions regarding the intended markets (suckers vs. veterans) which are often hard to prove.

Everything is collectible to somebody whether wartime, post-war reproduction or even outright fake -- we just have to strive to know what we're getting.

Best regards,
---Norm

[speedytop]

Hi Brig,

They are official government contracted medals ...

I have a problem with this comment.

The original comment in Post 1 came from the "Imperial Militaria Forum, Spot on: IMPERIAL FAKES!".
For the progress of the discussion there you must look first at Post 62/63 and then at Post 262 and the following.

It was an answer on my comment about the not original Imperial badges.

My question there and in Post 4 here is fixed on the terms "official" or "sanctioned" for Imperial decorations, again produced for example in 1960.

Therefore I don't understand your comment, that they (the Imperial not original badges) "are official government contracted medals".

It must be my insufficient English?


Hi Norm,

S&L chose to make awards to fill a market; these products functioned as replacement awards but as far as we can tell it was without any official government sanction (aside from the '57-form awards).

Thank you very much for your objective comments.

Uwe

[Norm F]

Therefore I don't understand your comment, that they (the Imperial not original badges) "are official government contracted medals".

It must be my insufficient English?

Hi Uwe,

Yes, it's a misunderstanding. Brig's comment is regarding U.S. campaign medals: "They still strike WWII campaign medals and sell them at the PX. They are official government contracted medals, obviously not period, but replacements meant to be worn to reunions, functions, and for burials." He is not claiming this is the case in Germany.

Hope that clears things up. Having said that, there's very little real difference between a retired U.S. Navy WW2 vet wearing an "official" 1990's campaign medal at a formal function and a German WW1 vet wearing an "unofficial" 1960's EK1914 at a formal function. They serve the same purpose and it's uncharitable to call those awards "fakes" (although technically they are indeed "reproductions").

Best regards,
---Norm

[Brig]

Hi Uwe,
(although technically they are indeed "reproductions").

Best regards,
---Norm

I think you could even go as far as to call them simply 'modern strikes' or 'modern replacements'

As there's no universal terminology, I'm sure this will continue to be a point of debate throughout the ages