Concerned

[Brien]

Hi guys,

While scanning the E-Bay shame thread I cam across this post by Nigel

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&postcount=116

I have seen this listing and shied away due to the dipping ring on a first pattern core. Though the detail of the core is as good or better than some I have seen.

Now I am concerned though. I have a Second Pattern RK in my collection that looks very much like this one. Am I to assume that my second pattern RK is also...dare I say it....a FRAUD RK was purchased several years ago from W.

[Brien]

Real or Fake??

Help me out here folks. Is this real? Am considering putting it on the E-Stand and would rather know now than later.

[Nigel N]

Hi Brien!
This is one of those RK's that some people think are fakes, possibly a Morigi variant, while others believe they are genuine later S&L RK's!
I personally don't like them, while the font style, and indeed the entire core is not the same as the usual Morigi fakes, the frame looks like Morigi's work to me, the soft, shallow beading and a finish on the frame that doesn't look to me like anything S&L finished in their factory!
Also, something about the suspension loop looks more Morigi than S&L too??
These are my thoughts on it, but we really need some others to give their opinion too, hopefully Steve in particular will chip in here, as he has a large collection of later S&L's and could maybe compare your photo's with the RK's in his collection!!
Yours doesn't seem to match a "C" or a "D" frame, and that casts a big doubt on it for me!!!
-Nigel

[Steve 5]

Hi Brien, the frame inner corner, the right centre lower matches my St u L late frame being quite distinctive, the rest of the corners are polished flat, another trait of some St u L crosses being over done on the finishing/polishing wheel !
In order ti dismiss frame types, and discuss further..... I would like to know is the core magnetic ?
Prost ! Steve.

[Matthieu]

I'm quite sceptic on this type of KC, mainly because you can find it swastika version as well.
On this particular piece I'm confident in saying at least the "800" stamp is ( wrongfully ) added to boost sales.
But this frame .... postwar for sure, but my gut says ... FAKE

Grtz,
Mathijs

[Brien]

Hmmm

Not looking good then. It's non-magnetic, but much better built than a Morigi. The finishing on the inner arms is like other S&L's I have. If it's a fake, wish I still had my receipt..I'd send it back to the dealer

[Steve 5]

Sorry Brian, it exhibits traits from St u L and Morigi, but IMO is neither ! I think as both Mathijs and Nigel...... a reproduction.
Search for your invoice/receipt, and try sending it back if you can, good luck !
Prost ! Steve.

[Nigel N]

Actually Brien, it looks more like S&L, and less like Morigi in those last, closer photo's, I can now see good detailing on the acorn cups, which I didn't see before!
Still unsure on the finish, especially on the frame, a strange look to it, or is that just the lighting? But it just doesn't seem correct for S&L??
Non-magnetic is good, that's what it should be for a later piece, but as Mathijs mentioned the "800" mark looks to be roughly stamped, denting the frame??
i'm still not !00% sure its good to be honest!!
-Nigel

[Tony T-S]

If it was a D frame the suspension loop would have been finished properly wouldn't it? The height of the ledge the beading sits on (whatever the correct terminology is), reduces as it reaches the joining of the arms as on a D frame. The hole in the frames where the arms joins also suggests later workmanship as in a late D, but front on I would have said the frame was Morigi. As Nigel said, the beading lacks detail and seems to widely spaced for S&L

Not sure I'd send this back. It may be a fake, but it is confusing enough to be a good reference piece to have. I wonder whether it's been weathered to hide it's fake characteristics or to give it more "value" through aging and a dodgy silver mark?

Ed: I've gone back and had another look. Definitely not a D frame. The loop is very distinctive on the D frame, almost squared off where as this has a the earlier dough nut shape. Makes things more confusing.

[Brien]

..

I agree with the 800 marking being a spurious addition as it does look dented.

I still hold hope that it's a dressed up late model. The finish cleans up well, I'll try and spiff it up since it's obviously not worth much more than a curiosity at this point and post a pic.

It's a pity, got it from a well known dealer...but it has been several years now.

[Brien]

spiffed

finish spiffed a bit

[Nigel N]

I'm liking it more and more!!!
With better photo's, lighting etc. I now think it is a later S&L!!
-Nigel

[Tom B]

I'm liking it more and more!!!
With better photo's, lighting etc. I now think it is a later S&L!!
-Nigel

Yes Nigel, I agree Tom

[Tony T-S]

So a later C?