Post war Pour le Merite

[Nigel N]

The first two are most definitely S&L made pieces. (They are now making "Fake" S&L's these days - your first two crosses; however, are genuine S&L pieces.) Nice find!

The third cross with the oak leaves is most assuredly a Göde piece.

Thanks for your thoughts on these!!
Interesting to hear about the S&L fakes, are they convincing or easily spotted?? Any easy way to identify them, if they are convincing looking pieces or have you any pictures of the S&L fakes so we know what to look for???
-Nigel

[Unfront]

Thanks for your thoughts on these!!
Interesting to hear about the S&L fakes, are they convincing or easily spotted?? Any easy way to identify them, if they are convincing looking pieces or have you any pictures of the S&L fakes so we know what to look for???
-Nigel

Fake S&L's pop up on eBay pretty frequenly. In fact there is a seller that is offering his as an "S&W" - for Schneider & Wagner. I have never heard of Schneider & Wagner - Wagner und Sohne yes, but Schneider & Wagner? Nope. At least they are "nice" enough to tell you that it is a Post WWII Copy, which it indeed is; however, the only thing close to an "approved" award post WWII is an S&L. Either way, there are a few signs that you are dealing with a fake:

1. The L in Le Me',, extends all the way into the golden frame.
2. The suspension lacks the baroque definition. It is flat
3. It is missing the die defect on the left wing of the eagle on the lower left corner.
4. Fraudsters have become savvy that their fakes are easily spotted so they are now stamping them with S&W on the revers and claiming that they are from a different maker.
5. The enamel is shoddy at best.
6. The lettering and the crown seem to be recessed in the paint - as if they were painted over and someone had to scratch away the paint to reveal the inscription.


Here is a photo of text book "FAKE" S&L:



Here I have highlighted the tell tale signs that it is a knock off:



Here is a photo of the reverse showing hocus bogus S&W stamp:



There is a seller on ebay.de that sells these for Eu 125 and does not make any claims that they are anything other than reproduction PlMs. However, there is one other seller: antikmarktmuensterland with his auction: here that is trying to make up a story about his little paper weight. For just a few hundred more, you can find a decent S&L. Which is too bad, because, this seller has this same style fake for sell just about every other month.

[Nigel N]

Thank you very much for taking the time to post that!!!
Very helpful to the collecting community!!!!!!!!!
-Nigel

[Mike Yokum]

Great pieces Daniel! Congrats!

Thanks to Unfront for the excellent photos and lesson on PLM's! Very much appreciated!

I'll make this a reference thread later today.

[Alex W.]

Is there anything known about the silver S&L PLM's that are 800 marked (like the first one shown in the thread) ? Is this something that puts them earlier in the production timeline (maybe 1940's) or was this simply a more expensive version of the regular PLM ? From what I've seen those silver S&L PLM's are hardly ever found compared to the regular ones...
Thanks,
Alex

[Unfront]

Thank you!

I want to stress one thing about these "fake" S&L PlMs. Sellers on eBay, and other fraudsters out there have figured out that thier fake's are easily spotted if a collector knows what to look for. In order to confuse the issue, they will mark them with the S&W (Schneider & Wagner) mark. They will sell the item under the same premise that S&L's were sold - in that they are post 1. 1945 manufacture made for the WWI vets.

While Steinhauer und Lueck did in fact produce a PlM for WWI recipients post 1945 (i.e 57er); however, a large quantity of them were produced, a number which far exceeded the number of vets that could use them so they were sold into the collectors market - supposedly all the way into the 1980s.

The fake Steinhauer und Luek's that are stamped S&W are usually sold under a similar premise - i.e. Jewelers copy made for a WWI recipient. This is a very crafty way to mis-lead the consumer! They will tell half truths. Yes, the cross is "Post WWII manufacture". Yes, it is a "jewelers copy" for whatever that means; however, it is NOT made for a WWI recipient. That would be hard to prove or disprove. Just keep one thing in mind. As with all militaria, buy the item! Not the story.

Here are a few photos of my S&L:

[Nigel N]

Thanks for the pics of your super PLM!!
And the extra info, the story about S&L making far more PLM's in the postwar/57 period mirrors that of several other top end pieces, including Oaks & Diamonds, which also ended up on the collectors market!!!!!!
-Nigel

[reichenberg]

There is a well known UK dealer who always passes off these post WWII PLMs as 1920s/30s and quotes a reference work as showing one SIMILAR that has provenance as to the date of manufacture. Similar perhaps, but not IDENTICAL. He has one listed now at a cool £825.

[Steve 5]

A highly informative and very useful thread indeed ! Well done Unfront for this invaluable information, I now feel empowered to begin the hunt for one of these St u L PLM's...excellent information ! Thanks to Daniel for starting this thread !
Prost ! Steve.

[Tony T-S]

There are at least four further excellent threads (linked to each other in series) on the PLM in the Imperial forum that are very well worth the read. This is a stunning award where even the rip offs look a million dollars.

[Unfront]

Again thank you. For those seeking an S&L PlM - I think they are indeed beautiful awards and are worthy of a higher classification than outright copies. However, they were NOT part of the 1957 Orendsgesetz. The only thing that pertains to anything close to the PlM is that pre 1933 awards were to be worn only by people that had received such awards and that the Bundesrepublik would pay out the Ehrensold (honorarium) that came with certain Imperial era awards.

In addition, the new Bundesrepublik Deutshland did not specifically contract for a PlM. It is believed that the PlM veterans organization did contract for a re-issue for veterans that had to their awards "liberated" (i.e. stolen), destroyed, or had to sell them in years prior. At the time, several PlM recipients did purchase the S&L issued pieces and wore them at special gatherings. Some of their S&L issued pieces are now in museums! That being said, S&L made many MANY more awards than were needed. Some went to museums, quite a few others went to collectors. ***Much of this information can be found in the S&L PlM thread in the imperial forum where there is a rather lively discussion on the topic!!!***

Either way, I am of the opinion that an S&L PlM is a great way to get in to a sort of "last official run" of the award at a small fraction of what a Pre May 45 or pre November 1918 piece would cost.

[Unfront]

I should also ad that many PlM purists do malign the S&L PlM as an out and out copy. While it is a copy in the truest sense, much the same as those manufactured from 1918 through 1945, I do think that it deserves a place well above a simple "back of the magazine" cheap copy from god knows where as it is quite well documented that several PlM recipients did in fact wear these.

[Unfront]

Since a few of you mentioned that you would like to pick up an S&L PlM I thought I'd expound upon the fakes found on eBay a little more by writing up a sort of "cliff notes" of the wealth of information that can be found in the imperial forum. (Please do a search on the PlM in the imperial forum prior to making any purchase as there several members there with far more knowledge on the subject than I have.)

First off, in your quest for the Prussian Blue you might start feeling the burn for a for a PlM that was manufactured prior to May 1945 as you will most likely find "an unbelievable deal" for a beautiful piece on eBay. If a pre 1945 PlM is what you are really after, DO NOT go to eBay (period). You WILL be ripped off and disappointed. Amongst the abundance cheap "back of the magazine" copies that can be had by the dozen (that are also sold as such), you will also find:

• Fake S&L's listed as "Schneider & Wagner" (as detailed above),

• Reddick Enterprise's "Museum Grade" PlM's that have been artificially aged and come complete with a FAKE expertise from "Detleve Niemand" - that was one of my personal favourites. I have seen some where they will just fabricate their own "expertise" under their own name...for whatever value that may [or may not] provide,

• The infamous "Spanish Fake" that can be made to look very nice with a dremmel tool. The Spanish Fake has burnt 100's of people out of thousands upon thousands of dollars....,

• The newer 90's era eastern European copies that can also look very good to the untrained eye, and

• Whatever new eye candy that may come out of the sun and take your wallet by surprise!

You might come across an Austrian made Rothe from time to time which might have some value, but be aware that Rothe made PlM's post 1918, and while some of their wares were worn during the Third Reich period, Rothe continued manufacturing PlM's with reckless abandon all the way through the 1980's.

As far as the fake S&L that is now commonly listed as a "S&W" I have copied the text from a current auction (as of August 2013) by eBay paperweight pervayor: antikmarktmuensterland here:

Rare German WW I imperial medal marker S&W 938
Pour le Merite imperial knight cross of WW I
************************************
This medal comes with old ribbon and with documents of expert.

Medal made after WW I and after WW II of old German jeweller (Schneider & Wagner/ S&W) for a German officer. It isn´t a PM from producer Steinhauer and Lück. Medal looks exactly as the original badge. Size and weight are 100 % as original.
Front and backside not with damage. Ribbon is old and in good condition. Of course medal comes including old ribbon. All is very nice and wonderful for collector or for a serious museum.Please read the discription under the photos and scroll down.
Shipping tax is 08.00 Euro worldwide !!!



The seller has a Buy it Now price of $598 - which just under the going rate of a Steinhauer und Lueck PlM.

Notice that the seller even calls out that it is not an S&L - that statement is true and is there to build trust! As far as the ribbon being "old and in good condition", trust me, that ribbon is not old and can be had on eBay.de all day long for Eu20. Regarding the statement that it was manufactured for an Officer... impossible to prove, more possible to disprove as it most certainly was not manufactured for an officer - why? because the last known PlM Recipient: Ernst Junge died in 1998. This cross was more likely to have been manufactured in the 2000's. Perhaps (but most likely not) it was manufactured for an officer of the Bundeswehr for his personal collection. The photocopy of the photo of the PlM recipient is a nice touch though isn't it? All in all, it is a decent "looking" PlM, but it is NOT even close to to what it is trying to be - an S&L. Though much of the listing is true (except for the misleading notion that it was manufactured for a PlM recipient), the context of the entire listing is a fiction for a PlM that should be sold as a "back of the magazine" copy for $50.00 at the most.

While we all know that pre 1918 pieces have become prohibitively expensive, and 20's era jeweleres copies (a term that seems to encompass any PlM manufactured pre May 1945) have also soared in price, S&L PlM's have become harder and harder to find. They can, however, still be had. Just give it a little patience and be prepared to spend anywhere between $500 to $1000. Some may be found for less, but that has become a rare occurrence as of late. Good luck!

.

[Nigel N]

Thanks again for all the very helpful information!!!
As I am a collector of 57 and postwar medals, If I was ever to buy one,(which may never happen!!) i would be looking for an S&L made PLM from the early days of the 57 era, late 50's/ early 60's, I would think the quality would still be pretty good, hopefully they would be affordable, and of course there would be a link time-wise to the rest of my collection! I can't speak for the other guys here who mentioned they would also like a PLM, but I am guessing they would also prefer a piece from that time period???
Cheers!!!!!
-Nigelbeerchug.gif

[Mike Yokum]

I too want to thank Unfront and ALL who contributed in this thread for their dedication to the collecting field.

I've added this thread to our - Links to Comparison and Reference Threads section for posterity.