Souval Gilder Pilot Badge

[Alex W.]

Hi everyone,

this Glider Pilot Badge is part of a Souval grouping. It mostly consists of badges of the later years of his manufacturing. Due to the S&L type pin I would estimate it's from around ca. 1970. ?
The catch is no longer the more commonly known "souval claw"but rather a type of soldered on hook. This type of catch is actually quite common on the later years badges. While the quality is certainly not as fine as on those 50's badges, it's still of okay quality. I would also like to compare it to S&L 57'er version if this badge.

Thanks,
Alex

[Alex W.]

Details

[Alex W.]

Side shot

[Alex W.]

Reverse

[Alex W.]

Reverse 2

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Reverse 3

[Alex W.]

Last one

[Nigel N]

Hi Alex!!!
Nice badge!! I think your estimate of the date of this one is about right, open hingeblock and later style pin!! We have also seen that catch type before, but I can't remember which piece(s) had this catch??
If you search through the old threads on Glider badges, you'll find some nice examples, and it would be interesting to compare this one with S&L and Assmann pieces!!!!!!!
-Nigel

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Alex,

I would agree on the timeframe of the 1970s. This is the S&L eagle and wreath design, but its very doubtful these were ever produced during the war by S&L. They are often found marked with L58 for Souval and with questionable postwar hardware. All signs point to postwar production.

Yours seems a bit lower quality than the ones we typically encounter, and therefore would agree with the later timeframe you mention.

When you say you found it in a "Souval grouping", what does that mean? With other Souval badges. It is thought by some that Souval may have supplied postwar-badges to S&L, but I have always wondered if it was the other way around....and that S&L actually supplied badges to Souval??

Tom

[Leroy]

It is thought by some that Souval may have supplied postwar-badges to S&L, but I have always wondered if it was the other way around....and that S&L actually supplied badges to Souval??
Tom

It would be nice (and useful) to fit a specific activity to a specific time frame, so as not to create confusion and misunderstanding.

[Alex W.]

Hi Alex,

I would agree on the timeframe of the 1970s. This is the S&L eagle and wreath design, but its very doubtful these were ever produced during the war by S&L. They are often found marked with L58 for Souval and with questionable postwar hardware. All signs point to postwar production.

Yours seems a bit lower quality than the ones we typically encounter, and therefore would agree with the later timeframe you mention.

When you say you found it in a "Souval grouping", what does that mean? With other Souval badges. It is thought by some that Souval may have supplied postwar-badges to S&L, but I have always wondered if it was the other way around....and that S&L actually supplied badges to Souval??

Tom

Hi Tom,

that Souval gilder pilot badge was part of a collection of post war Souval badges.
The whole lot did cosist of about 10-15 post war Souval badges.
Most of them are later style production (ca. 1970). Just like the shown above glider Pilot badge.
Many badges of that lot use the known S&L style hardware, others using even a different style of hardware. Even though most badges are of later production, I found this grouping particular interesting, since many of the badges are Gau badges. These are a bit harder to come by as regular combat badges.

Anyway, from a fellow collector that personally talked to Mr. Umlauf (Manager of Souval) in 1974, I have learned that one of the many problems in producing badges in those later years was the shortage of good hardware. One probably wouldn't think so but Souval had to use whatever they had on hand. I don't know why Souval didn't just keep using their own "Souval claw" hardware which they used in the 50's & 60's, but they sure must have had problems with the supply of good hardware.

Alex

[Thomas Durante]

It would be nice (and useful) to fit a specific activity to a specific time frame, so as not to create confusion and misunderstanding.

Hi Leroy,

I remember us discussing the 1953 article in "Revue" that Dietrich mentions in the RK book, where companies would go to S&L to replenish their stock of "wartime" badges. It was suggested (maybe by you, I am not sure), that S&L may not have produced these badges, but were infact supplied by Souval. Please correct me if I have that wrong.

Alex, thanks very much for the information about your find. It is a little surprising to hear about Souval's shortage of good hardware. It seems to dispute the notion that there were huge supplies of leftover hardware after the war that still survives until today. But maybe some of these firms with surviving hardware weren't as active in the postwar period as Souval and S&L..

Tom

[Nigel N]

Hi Alex!
Thanks for the info on Souval and their hardware!!
It does seem to confirm what we already thought, and what the evidence seemed to point to, which is that Souval started postwar/57 production with, pretty much all their own hardware, including the well known catch and low hingeblock, as time went by, more and more S&L parts replaced Souvals own style, until eventually the hardware on some pieces was 100% S&L design!!
The style of pins used mirrored that of S&L, with the earlier coke bottle pin being followed by the thin tapering pin etc.
A study of the blank core EK1's is fascinating in this respect, with the last of these EK1's, and indeed EK2's even having an S&L frame!!!!

Heres a link to a Souval EK thread you might find interesting.......................
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=589315

-Nigel

[Tom B]

I don't understand....

Hello to All, I will never understand the reluctance on the part of S&L and Souval to share information. Sometimes I get the feeling they get a thrill out holding back !I was welcomed at S&L with open arms when I was purchasing items, but as soon as I asked a few questions as to wartime & post war mfg. techniques, they said "NO' and could hardly wait to get rid of me. These firms hold the answers to MANY of our questions. And as far as record keeping goes, NO German or Austrian company is lacking in that respect ! Tom

[Leroy]

I remember us discussing the 1953 article in "Revue" that Dietrich mentions in the RK book, where companies would go to S&L to replenish their stock of "wartime" badges. It was suggested (maybe by you, I am not sure), that S&L may not have produced these badges, but were infact supplied by Souval. Please correct me if I have that wrong.

Tom,
In the article, it was mentioned that if S&L did not have a particular piece in stock, the customer could put in an order and, several weeks later, expect delivery. What I think was happening was that S&L was still basically assembling pieces from leftover parts and pieces, just as it had done in the immediate postwar years, but starting to perhaps occasionally now re-strike, on a very limited basis, some pieces, and also outsourcing missing parts, so a piece might be a "mix and match" of components. If the customer came to them and wanted a badge it just didn't have, or couldn't get from one the myriad other companies in Ludenscheid, I believe that S&L would order it from Souval. I don't believe for one second that S&L would go to the trouble of setting up a die-striking "run" just to produce a badge because a customer wanted something it didn't have. It would not surprise me at all if S&L shared dies with Souval and let Souval do the bulk of new die-striking (at least until the mid-1950's), or that there was a continuing relationship between the companies.

We are too late now to find out exactly what happened in those early days. No one documented anything at the time because it wasn't important and there was no organized collecting fraternity. We didn't have serious authors or researchers, so the period 1945-55 (and perhaps even a bit later) is still like the Middle Ages to us. I have the greatest respect for people like Andreas Klein, Bass D, and others, who are earnestly "on the ground" in their research efforts, actually going to the towns and factories and talking with the people involved, especially older people.
Best,
Leroy