8-place ribbon bar- questionable

[luftkrieg]

Dear Gents,

A very Happy New Year to you all!!

I just spotted this one on eBay. I assume this one is not an original 57er ribbon bar given that there are two Flower War ribbons on there...

Note too, the long service ribbon....I think that may have been on another ribbon bar and been overlapped by another ribbon as there appear to be two shades of blue on it. Though just thinking out loud here.

The reverse I really do not understand.

Best regards
Pierce

[Nigel N]

Hi Pierce!
Well, its not a normal 57 ribbonbar that a vet would buy from a maker or retailer thats for sure!!
But with the addition of the Europa Frontkampfers cross (if thats what its called!) I think there is a possibility that this bar is a vet owned and self assembled piece??
Its not really a bar made to fool IMO???
-Nigel

[Seewolf]

Phew, hard to say.

Indeed the bar looks odd, especially with the forbidden ribbons on a 57er bar.

Nigel could be right, maybe a self assempled piece by a vet but without a safe provenance like pics and docs that bar would be nothing for my collection.

Thanks for bringing that one up, Pierce

[luftkrieg]

Well this ribbon bar raises that exact question for me; could it be possible for the wear of "forbidden" ribbons to happen? I cannot recall any photographic evidence or any known genuine ribbon bar that proves this but maybe it could be possible. I mean it did happen in the Third Reich period.

As usual though, I believe every ribbon bar should be evaluated on its own individual merits.

Best regards
Pierce

[Nigel N]

Hi Pierce!
The wearing of forbidden ribbons, and even full size medals did occur on 57 vets bars, especially on the Austrian bars..........
This one has the Sudetenland medal on it...........
044.jpg

And heres another pic of a Europakreuz, which was made in France i believe, and was for sale to WW2 veterans from any country i think, though i dont think many bothered buying them!!!!
KB%20E~1.JPG

[luftkrieg]

Hi Pierce!
The wearing of forbidden ribbons, and even full size medals did occur on 57 vets bars, especially on the Austrian bars..........
This one has the Sudetenland medal on it...........

And heres another pic of a Europakreuz, which was made in France i believe, and was for sale to WW2 veterans from any country i think, though i dont think many bothered buying them!!!!

Thanks for showing this example Nigel. Yes Austria was a little different. I recall seeing a photo of an Austrian vet wearing all of his original WW2 medals post-war.

As I say, I personally think each ribbon bar should be looked at individually as a lot of things were possible post-war. For this particular ribbon bar though I am with Rüdiger.

Best regards
Pierce

[Mike Yokum]

We see so many anomalies with 57ers, it can even make experienced collectors second guess themselves sometimes.

On the full size medal bars, I can see non-regulation medals being included, but IMO, its much less likely on a mini bar intended for daily wear I'm a uniform.

I'm also with Rudiger. Without solid provenance, I'd pass.

[Matthieu]

Hi chaps,

I'm adding this picture from a dealer site, which placed the EU medal in front of the EK2.
Looking at this ribbon bar, its placed all the way at the back.
But which one is now correct, I wish I had an answer .... .

@ Pierce, I guess the black plate on the back of the ribbon bar might be magnetic.
Maybe the veteran sewed another one inside his jacket to make it stick.
Or maybe I have too much fantasy inside my mind .

Grtz
Mathijs

[luftkrieg]

Hi chaps,

I'm adding this picture from a dealer site, which placed the EU medal in front of the EK2.
Looking at this ribbon bar, its placed all the way at the back.
But which one is now correct, I wish I had an answer .... .

@ Pierce, I guess the black plate on the back of the ribbon bar might be magnetic.
Maybe the veteran sewed another one inside his jacket to make it stick.
Or maybe I have too much fantasy inside my mind .

Grtz
Mathijs

Perhaps both are acceptable or it was down to the discretion of the individual as I have seen some ribbon bars in wear that show the foreign awards worn before the German awards, for example Commander Grade foreign awards etc but I always assumed this was because of the grade of the foreign award.

Fantasy perhaps....or maybe you have got it!

Best regards
Pierce

[Nigel N]

Whats also interesting about the medalbar Mathijs showed, is that it has a cast Souval EK2 on it, as well as the Europa Kreuz, and various Austrian and German vets association medals, does anyone know what the last medal is???

As for the ribbonbar that started this thread, i think the reverse has some kind of fixing on it, presumably to make it easier to transfer it from one jacket to another? Has anyone contacted the seller, to see if he has any info on the bar, or where it came from??

-Nigel

[Seewolf]

Do we know if the austrians have an order of assembling like the germans?


The last medal of Mathijs shown bar has a steel helmet on it which looks for me like a french adrian steel helmet. Maybe we should look at france?

[Nigel N]

Heres the reverse of the bar, the last medal has "Al Merito" (Italian?) on the reverse, the ribbon looks very much like the WW1 commemorative/ Victory medals???
CIMG8523.jpg

[Seewolf]

A short google search brought me that the steel helmet is an italian ww1 helmet ( looks the same like the french helmet)
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...6-steel-helmet

So the medal is for sure an italian one.....i think from a "Kameradschaft", no official award. Haven´t found that one via google

[Nigel N]

Good work Rudiger!!!!!!!!!!
-Nigel

[Frech]

Do we know if the austrians have an order of assembling like the germans?


The last medal of Mathijs shown bar has a steel helmet on it which looks for me like a french adrian steel helmet. Maybe we should look at france?

Yes, we know.

In Austria there are some different types of regulars:

1. for the Austrian armed forces (Bundesheer)
2. for the Austrian federal police (Bundespolizei)
3. for the volounteer organisations (red cross = Rotes Kreuz, and fire fighters = Feuerwehren)
4. for the veterans (ÖKB = Österreichischer Kameradschaftsbund)

# 1 and # 2 are quite the same (99 %), edited by the respective ministry.

# 3 and # 4 have own edited by their federal unions. And here just the # 4 are quite different from the governmental ones.

Bundesheer and Polizei never were allowed to wear WW2 german decorations wether in original nor in 1957 issues.

Feuerwehr and Rotes Kreuz were allowed to wear 1957er. ÖBK too.

But most of the veterans are very stingy and used their original decorations, some of them hiding the swastika, some of them not. Just few of 1957er were in circulation here.

This differs very much to the german situation were you could wear the 1957er to Bundeswehr, Grenzschutz and Polizei uniforms.

In general WW2 decorations count as foreign (german) decorations here. ÖKB-vets had their own sight of view. They often prefered to wear WW2 decorations before postwar Austrian ones.

When a vet had a full size or ribbon bar and he earned another decoration, he did not purchase a new one. In most cases they tried to complete the old one by themselfes.

So you can find anything and you are going to see it on the pics posted here.

I am producing ribbon bars for 24 years now and believe me: I have seen every kind of stupidity and rubbish you can imagine.

This just for a first insight. If you are interested more ask.

Regards

Christian