Luftwaffe Knights Cross Grouping ....

[Nigel N]

Very nice looking display Mathijs!!!!!!!!!!
-Nigelclap5.gif

[bratwurstdimsum]

Luftwaffe Knights Cross Grouping ....

Very nice grouping - I'm digging deep into my database to help with the name !

Can someone tell me : why are the pendants not attached to the spanges? Is it because they are ww2 pendants and 1957 aufklarer badges do not support these?

[martin hall]

Very nice and interesting group gone to a great home. congrats martin.

[Matthieu]

Very nice grouping - I'm digging deep into my database to help with the name !

Can someone tell me : why are the pendants not attached to the spanges? Is it because they are ww2 pendants and 1957 aufklarer badges do not support these?

Hi Jeff,

At the time I came up with these possible names :

1. Paul Birnkraut
2. Werner Breese
3. Hans Bonath
4. Herward Braunegg
5. Richard Anders
6. Albert Celerin
7. Fritz Achtner

IMO the pendants are not attached as I assume the veteran re-purchased all the medals he won during the war in their 1957 form, but only wore the KC and EK1 on his vest.

Grtz,
Mathijs

[bratwurstdimsum]

Hi Jeff,

At the time I came up with these possible names :

1. Paul Birnkraut
2. Werner Breese
3. Hans Bonath
4. Herward Braunegg
5. Richard Anders
6. Albert Celerin
7. Fritz Achtner

IMO the pendants are not attached as I assume the veteran re-purchased all the medals he won during the war in their 1957 form, but only wore the KC and EK1 on his vest.

Grtz,
Mathijs

Hi Mathijs, out of the pilots you have put forward, if we put forward the premise that the 2012 house clearance in Bavaria area was for the pilot's estate then the following can probably be eliminated:

Werner Breese D: 17/02/1995 Hohenwestedt
Hans Bonath D: 25/12/2004 Hamburg
Hervard Braunegg D: 16/12/1983 - Graz/Áustria
Richard Anders D: 09/09/1993 Stade/Niedersachsen
Albert Celerin D:31/12/1997 - Wien (Viena)/Áustria

Leaving:
1. Paul Birnkraut D: 01/01/1987 München
7. Fritz Achtner ??? can't find anything on this man

[bratwurstdimsum]

I think you mean:
7. Fritz Aechtner - B: 04/03/1916 - Nürnberg D: 01/05/2007 - Nürnberg


This means both Albert and Fritz could be your man but I'm doing an extensive survey of all Aufklarer RKT pilots to see how wide the list may be.
So far the results are:

According to http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.n...ases/ases8.htm there are 101 RKT for Aufklarer pilots

Out of these:
29 were KIA/MIA in battle prior to 1945
= 72
3 died soon after 1945 before the 57er awards we introduced
=69
4 are still living (presumably with their awards still)
=65
33 died outside of Baravia
=32

20 died post 1957 but details do not include place of death - still working on this.
12 died in the Baravian state - definite candidates.

The main difficulty is the lack of data on wound badges received. Most of the recipients I have were never wounded (at least on the records I've seen). I have a couple of schwartz verwudenabzeichen awarded but nothing gold.

[jul208]

It is impossible to say if the medals comes from a KC holder estate. It is more likely a collectors estate IMO. Wouldn't there be some more militaria related stuff in the group if there was from a KC holder estate, like photos, documents etc. Just some small swastikas seems to have survived the war. And two drilled holes in the KC. And why would the KC holder buy all the lower grades of the medals.

I think it is a little bit misleading by Butschek to describe the grouping as "Medal grouping from unknown Knights Cross recipient" and "All to one soldier", because he don´t know if that is true, but it maybe sound better than "Medal grouping from unknown collector"

/ Daniel

[Matthieu]

It is impossible to say if the medals comes from a KC holder estate. It is more likely a collectors estate IMO. Wouldn't there be some more militaria related stuff in the group if there was from a KC holder estate, like photos, documents etc. Just some small swastikas seems to have survived the war. And two drilled holes in the KC. And why would the KC holder buy all the lower grades of the medals.

I think it is a little bit misleading by Butschek to describe the grouping as "Medal grouping from unknown Knights Cross recipient" and "All to one soldier", because he don´t know if that is true, but it maybe sound better than "Medal grouping from unknown collector"

/ Daniel

Not really - I have many of these groups, either the paperwork or the medals.
Only in one or two rare cases was I able to buy both medals and papers.

[Darrell]

And why would the KC holder buy all the lower grades of the medals.
/ Daniel

I was thinking the same. If someone had a Gold Version, not so sure why he would get the other two grades. Then again ... who knows.

[jul208]

Not really - I have many of these groups, either the paperwork or the medals.
Only in one or two rare cases was I able to buy both medals and papers.

Well it is still impossible to say that this grouping comes from a KC holder estate.

/ Daniel

[Nigel N]

It is quite often the case that a vet would buy all the grades of a badge he won, we have seen this many times!
All the pieces in this group are a match in terms of production dates, and for me, there is no reason to doubt this was once a vet owned group??
The converted RK makes this a special group too, and I don't understand why anyone would be so keen on trying to disprove or devalue such a nice set???
-Nigel

[bratwurstdimsum]

Luftwaffe Knights Cross Grouping ....

I decided to redecorate ...

[bratwurstdimsum]

2.

[Matthieu]

Wow !!!!!!! That looks so much better than when I displayed them - IMO you have made an excellent choice in doing so !

[Steve 5]

Wow !!!!!!! That looks so much better than when I displayed them - IMO you have made an excellent choice in doing so !

Indeed a great way to display 57ers !.........However the tunic would be better suited if pre 1970 style, i.e. with french style turn back cuffs, heavier woolen construction and IMHO with Officers or at least a senior NCO rank That said a great collection of awards that need further investigation for concrete provenance !
Heres my BW Staff Oberst with its 57ers for display..............I also show the style of LW jacket pre-1970 cut, that IMO woud lend itself ideally to 57er display.
Prost ! Steve.