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**Thomas Durante** · 09-08-2012, 06:41 PM

Hi guys,

Great discussion, and also two very nice looking crosses Matthieu. I too would love to know the full story of S&L and Souval and who supplied who with what.

Looking specifically at the catch, the tool marks on it near the top tip are what we see on S&L badges quite often (both wartime and postwar), so this would suggest they were put together by S&L and supplied to Souval.

Tom

**Leroy** · 09-08-2012, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by grueni1208 View Post

Both crosses are by Souval, only the swas are different.
SuL crosses used another eagle design.

Souval on the left, S&L on the right? (I think the photo on the right might be Daniel's.)

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**Leroy** · 09-09-2012, 08:14 AM

Here's another cross with a different eagle.

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**Leroy** · 09-09-2012, 08:19 AM

Note the lines in the "first layer" of tail feathers, which are all vertical (as opposed to diagonal on the others), as well as other features. This particular piece is extremely well-made and is much "crisper" in person than my poor photography shows.

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skss3.jpg (152.6 KB, 192 views)

**Leroy** · 09-09-2012, 08:55 AM

One for Tom. Note also the die strike striations on the arms.

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skss4.jpg (97.2 KB, 186 views)

**grueni1208** · 09-09-2012, 10:41 AM

The Souval-eagles are more vaulted than the SuL-eagles, therefore they are to small and don't touch every cross arm. There are differents in plumagedesign and sworddesign.

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Vergleich 2.jpg (119.3 KB, 184 views)

**Leroy** · 09-09-2012, 10:50 AM

Excellent photos.

**Nigel N** · 09-09-2012, 11:28 AM

Thanks Daniel and Gentry!!!!

@Tom, there seems to have been quite a trade, postwar, between S&L and Souval, mainly in one direction!!
It appears that S&L sold all types of hardware, parts, and virtually finished badges, and maybe even dies to Souval, who used them alongside their own designs, often MM'ing the S&L pins etc. with L/58
Its an interesting subject that we are still learning about!!!
-Nigel

**Thomas Durante** · 09-11-2012, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by Nigel N View Post

@Tom, there seems to have been quite a trade, postwar, between S&L and Souval, mainly in one direction!!
It appears that S&L sold all types of hardware, parts, and virtually finished badges, and maybe even dies to Souval, who used them alongside their own designs, often MM'ing the S&L pins etc. with L/58
Its an interesting subject that we are still learning about!!!
-Nigel

Thanks Nigel.

I have heard in the past that it was thought that Souval actually supplied S&L, but you believe it to be the other way around? Comparing both makers, it seems that S&L was a much more prolific maker than Souval (both wartime and postwar), so that would make sense with your scenario. But do we have more evidence to confirm this?

My point of interest is more with S&L's immediately postwar activities, where it is thought by some that Souval actually was the one that made new swastika-bearing badges postwar and supplied them to S&L. So I am very interested to find out if it was actually the other way around, and S&L was the supplier to Souval and possibly others.

Thanks

Tom

**Nigel N** · 09-11-2012, 08:03 AM

Hi Tom!!
At the moment, i think it would be only guesswork to say 100% for sure that S&L supplied Souval, and nothing came back the other way!
Personally, i'd lean towards S&L being the main maker/supplier, as what we think is their hardware also appears on some pieces by both Deumer and Assmann! This is of course 57 pieces we are talking about, Third Reich copies with swastika could be a different story, especially in the early postwar period!!!
-Nigel

**Thomas Durante** · 09-11-2012, 08:24 AM

Thanks for the info Nigel.

Tom

**Leroy** · 09-11-2012, 11:42 AM

I predict that what you will eventually find (if you find anything at all) is that, until @1955, S&L did not newly produce anything at all, in terms of new die-striking. If it could not assemble a particular item from the existing leftover parts it had in stock, and if a "customer" (such as those occasionally referred by the tobacco shop owner, Herr Knoth) wanted a piece it did not have, it placed an order on behalf of the customer with Souval. It would not be surprising at all to learn that S&L furnished component parts, and perhaps even dies, to Souval from its leftover stock in those years. After 1955, who knows who produced what for whom...

There was a big difference in operating in a country (Germany) where a foreigner has the ability to close your business entirely and one (Austria) where there was no such fear.

**Nigel N** · 09-11-2012, 11:44 AM

Thanks for your thoughts Gentry!! A very interesting topic i think!!!
-Nigel

**Alex W.** · 06-10-2013, 10:19 AM

Here are two more Souval Spanish Crosses. One with cut out swastika, the other one without being cut out. The silver one has the wing ends soldered onto the cross. The golden one does not. I tend to belive that the silver one was earlier produced than the golden one. The golden one should be early 1960's production.

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**Alex W.** · 06-10-2013, 10:20 AM

Silver - Front

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image.jpg (190.9 KB, 196 views)

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Interesting ..... Souval vs St&L ( Spanish Cross )

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