Observer Assman/S&L/Deumer Reference Thread

[Mike Yokum]

Just a quick note for now, but THANKS Luud for putting this excellent reference thread together. I know it's been in the works for several weeks and I'm grateful to you for your efforts. It takes a lot of time to put together photos and thoughts to come up with both theories to be proven and facts that are plain to see.

I'll comment more on the content after work this evening.

You've done yourself proud as always! Thanks!

[talltom]

you have surpassed yourself this time this is a fantastic thread for sure
i need some more smileys for this thread
the observer medal is definatly a fantastic looking award and your photos really do them justice

best regards
tom

[Tom C.]

i can only echo what everyone else has said really a fantastic and most informative thread of a relativly hard to find award in 57 form i have to say i thing i need to kidnap one or more of you guys to take pics for me just brilliant stuff

tom

ps there are too many toms around here

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks Mike,

As you know I planned it 2 weeks ago when we talked about it. So I did make pictures when my holiday started, but there was so much action on the WAF that I forgot about it till a few members asked me about Assmanns a few days ago.
So I had to be quick finishing the thread becuase it was my last day of the holiday.
The tekst was just brainstorming and typing the thoughts that came up in my mind and I didn't have to invest any time in that because my opinion didn't change in years.
But maybe I will after we had a discussion

you have surpassed yourself this time this is a fantastic thread for sure
i need some more smileys for this thread
the observer medal is definatly a fantastic looking award and your photos really do them justice

best regards
tom

Thanks Tom,

So these Observers have the honor for your very first post here
Welcome to the club!

i can only echo what everyone else has said really a fantastic and most informative thread of a relativly hard to find award in 57 form i have to say i thing i need to kidnap one or more of you guys to take pics for me just brilliant stuff

tom

ps there are too many toms around here

I first thought about you or TomB having a new account.
Soon we will have to give you Toms a number, Tom1, Tom2, Tom3, Tom4, Tom5......

[Seewolf]

Maybe i should rename my nick to something with "Tom " in it....to make it way harder for you

Great thread Luud

NOW i clearly see the difference to Assmann

About the prodction date......longer ago we had this discussion about Assmann early or late or mid.....and i always thought that Assmann used up the dies from S&L and not the other way round. So my opinion was that Assmann was later enjoying the 57er production club.

What puzzles me is that Assmann used FIRST the S&L dies? So that must be Assmann dies, or not? I am missing my/some logic here with S&L dies.

[LuckyLuudje]

Maybe i should rename my nick to something with "Tom " in it....to make it way harder for you

Great thread Luud

NOW i clearly see the difference to Assmann

About the prodction date......longer ago we had this discussion about Assmann early or late or mid.....and i always thought that Assmann used up the dies from S&L and not the other way round. So my opinion was that Assmann was later enjoying the 57er production club.

What puzzles me is that Assmann used FIRST the S&L dies? So that must be Assmann dies, or not? I am missing my/some logic here with S&L dies.

You already confuse me wit the Rudy's

What discussion are you talking about?
I must be getting old because I can't remember (or I missed it)

Regarding the connection with S&L.
IMO Assmann used a complete other working die for these observers (either made by S&L or Assmann) based on a S&L eagle.
Because I suspect that S&L bought the Assmann stock when they went out of business, I wouldn't be surprised if late S&L's exist with the exact same eagle as the Assmann Observer. But I didn't look into that yet.

[Nigel N]

Hi Rudiger!
As for the EK1's i also thought that Assmann got the dies/parts from S&L, but as they have a non-magnetic core, thick catch and open hingeblock, that would make them around 1970??
I always struggle to find a timeline with Assmann, some pieces seem early, some late, and not much inbetween, maybe there is something we are missing??
A lot of the 57 production seems to centre around S&L, other makers using S&L parts or dies, and S&L buying up other makers old stock!
-Nigel

[LuckyLuudje]

Hi Rudiger!
As for the EK1's i also thought that Assmann got the dies/parts from S&L, but as they have a non-magnetic core, thick catch and open hingeblock, that would make them around 1970??
I always struggle to find a timeline with Assmann, some pieces seem early, some late, and not much inbetween, maybe there is something we are missing??
A lot of the 57 production seems to centre around S&L, other makers using S&L parts or dies, and S&L buying up other makers old stock!
-Nigel

Have you compared the parts in detail and are you sure that they are identical on your EK's?
Are you sure that Assmann didn't have another working die for the frames and core made from a S&L?

[Seewolf]

Hi Luud,

well, i can of course rename to "TomRüdi" or "RudyTom"

The qualoty of Assmann pieces is parted IMO...there are great quality pieces in and not so great ones.
As Nigel said, much leads to mid production and looking at your observer i see very early quality

That makes it not easier to find a safe timeline. Open hingeblocks, wide catches....everything says mid except the quality here.

Or is it that S&L bought the old Assmann hardware for use on their mid pieces? Of sure that could be....


I agree that the eagles look very similar and we should have a closer look at S&L eagles. If we find one in Assmann style on a S&L piece,,,then i am curious what production date the S&L one has

[Nigel N]

Hi Luud!
As you know its hard to be 100% sure on things, but the parts used on the Assmann EK1 appear to me to be identical to those used on S&L EK1's, the big difference is in the finish......
The paint on the Assmann core is textured, slightly rough, unlike anything i've seen on an S&L, and the frame is finished differently too,different silvering and even the filing on the edges of the frame arms etc. is not the same as on any of my other EK's that are definitely S&L's.
It might well be a different story on other Assmann pieces, but on the EK1, things seem to point to it being finished and marked by Assmann, but using S&L parts.
I'm sure theres lots to find out about Assmann!!!!!
-Nigel

[LuckyLuudje]

I think it is too early to make assumptions about the production date yet because I think it will become m more relevant if we have had more discussions about other Assmanns.

That makes it not easier to find a safe timeline. Open hingeblocks, wide catches....everything says mid except the quality here.

Or is it that S&L bought the old Assmann hardware for use on their mid pieces? Of sure that could be....

Why would Assmann start with the badges, found with this hardware alone, like glider, observers, PAB's, Ritired Pilot badges and so on in 57 form in the late period when there was no need anymore?
And why did they put so much effort in it, superiour to Deumer and S&L in the earliest period?
While others have the different hardware like the HSF prototype, erkampfabz and so on that are accepted to be made in the earliest manufactoring.

And that means they didn't produce in the first year till the modern period?
That doesn't make sence to me.

Sofar I still think that S&L started with the wide catch and open hinge at the moment Assmann went out of business.

[LuckyLuudje]

Nigel, with EK's you should be able to track down the Assmann relation if you compare it wth the S&L frames that came from the identical die.
It could be that S&L's from the mid/late period have the same frames because it is possible that S&L used the Assmann die from a certain moment!

But like I said, the production date is not the essence in this thread and that will expose itself if we looked closer into theother items of Assmanns and compare them to other herstellers.
The essence of this thread is IMO the comparisson of the Observers with the Obsevers from other herstellers.

[Seewolf]

I think it is too early to make assumptions about the production date yet because I think it will become m more relevant if we have had more discussions about other Assmanns.

Why would Assmann start with the badges, found with this hardware alone, like glider, observers, PAB's, Ritired Pilot badges and so on in 57 form in the late period when there was no need anymore?
And why did they put so much effort in it, superiour to Deumer and S&L in the earliest period?
While others have the different hardware like the HSF prototype, erkampfabz and so on that are accepted to be made in the earliest manufactoring.

And that means they didn't produce in the first year till the modern period?
That doesn't make sence to me.

Sofar I still think that S&L started with the wide catch and open hinge at the moment Assmann went out of business.

All good thoughts and an interesting discussion still started

So it really could be that S&L bought the old Assmann stock of catches, hingeblocks and maybe pins.

You brought some good thoughts and i too think it´s too early to say something about the period of manufacturing.

The quality of the observers is outstanding and shows nothing what we are used to see on mid period pieces. The EK is maybe an exception but it could be that Assmann still used zinc cores from leftover wartime material?

But like I said, the production date is not the essence in this thread and that will expose itself if we looked closer into theother items of Assmanns and compare them to other herstellers.
The essence of this thread is IMO the comparisson of the Observers with the Obsevers from other herstellers.

Just saw that, you´re right. Sorry for going offtrack

[Nigel N]

I think with Assmann, it might be a good idea to forget what we know, or think we know and start again from the beginning?
A compare thread like this should lead to some interesting discoveries, lets forget the EK for now, concentrate on the Observers and see where it leads!!!
-Nigel

[Tom C.]

these threads are really great the amount of knowlegde that is coming out of them is outstanding. i think what we need the most is a bloke who worked at S&L during 30 or so years from the 50s to 80s now that would help

best regards
tom