Observer Assman/S&L/Deumer Reference Thread

[LuckyLuudje]

Last week there was a handfull of people who asked me about Assmann badges, so I think it would be nice go go a little deeper into them.

I am thinking about starting an Assmann thread soon with all the characteristics but I think it would be better that we first compare the Assmanns to Deumers and S&L's to see what we can come up with.
So I made some pictures today of all the different oberver variants and will start a thread about them.
Other Assmann badges in comparisson with other herstellers will follow as soon as I have more time, but it can take a while because today is my last day of my holiday.

Knowing Mike, I already called it a reference thread. If he doesn't agree, he can just alter the name

This thread may not be 100% complete because I don't have later Observers and I don't want to use Austrian Observers because I just don't find them collectable.
In case there is interest, I can post pictures of a Souval that I got rid off.

I just realized that I used a thin needle S&L while I forgot the thick needle also and now it is getting to dark to make new pictures.
But the die characteristics and finish are almost a match with the thin needle.
The only difference with the thick neelde is that it is a little more crisp and nicer burnished, but for the rest it looks like it's twin, so it doesn't really matter for the comparisson.

I didn't prepare it at all and I just type what comes to my mind, so it can take a while before I am done and it might be a litlle chaotic. But I am just a huge chaotic

First up is an overvieuw of all the Obervers.
On top the Deumer and the S&L at the right.
Below are the 2 Assmann variants, notice the different wreaths.

[LuckyLuudje]

To go further it is maybe better to see them in full detail.
So here is the Deumer.

[LuckyLuudje]

S&l

[LuckyLuudje]

Here is the first Assmann.

This wreath is IMO rarer as the wreath that will come up next.
Notice the difference in finish.
Hard to disribe for me in English, but the black is "deep" black compared to the greyish colour on the Deumer and S&L.
The wreath has a dull finish while they used a deep while colour on the front with suburb burnished highlights as no other maker has it.

The round needle from Assmann is around 1,6mm thick and I never found this same round needle on a Deumer or S&L.

Assmann used many different needles, but on the Observers I only encountered this needle. I also never saw any other catches and hinges on an Observer from Assmann. And I also never saw an A mark on an Assmann Observer sofar.

[LuckyLuudje]

The Assmann Observer with the common wreath, although it is weird to used common in one sentence with Assmann.

On every 100 early Observers you will most likely encounter 95 S&L's, 3 Deumers and 2 Assmanns.

[LuckyLuudje]

The typical hardware and rivets found on the badges.

Assmann used different catches and hinges, but on Observers I only encountered them as shown.
Also with typical wide catch and open hinge.

I don't have a late/modern S&L anymore, but a few years ago I compared the hinges and vatches with a late S&L and I noticed differences.
This will mabe a nice subject to use in the upcomming Assmann thread as some late S&L's will arrive soon.

[LuckyLuudje]

While the eagles look almost similar, there are some differences.

I am still unsure what happend, but sofar it looks like there was a huge cooperation between the Ludenscheid herstellers.

Somethimes it is hard or even impossible to find out what happend because the same materials have been used on badges from the different herstellers.

But in this case I think that Assmann made a new working die from a S&L eagle.
The Assmann Eagles are for me the easiest to recognize at the spots that I marked with a red circle.

[LuckyLuudje]

Also notice the flaw on the wings and details of the wreath.
The flaws on Assmanns are nicer filed away, so it is harder visible, but it for sure has the same fingerprints as the S&L.

[LuckyLuudje]

I almost forgot about the Deumers, but I compared the hardware with S&L.
The hinges and catches are different (smaller and thicker).

[LuckyLuudje]

I will make a side stepp and show some S&L Airgunners to show the used wreaths on S&L's.
The left has the less common S&L wreath `(thick round needle) and compare that to the rarest Assmann Observer.!

[LuckyLuudje]

The left S&L on the left from te last post also has a much thicker wreath (like Assmann) in comparisson to the more common S&L wreath.

I forgot to make picture of the Assmann wreaths, but they are much thicker than the S&L.

I will incluse some data from these Observers

Thicknes of wreat and total weight;
Deumer:.....left: 3,47mm - right: 3,39mm -- 42,2 gram
S&L:..........left: 3,98mm - right: 4,06mm -- 37,2 gram
A common:.left: 4,09mm - right: 4,07mm -- 44,8 gram
A rare:.......left: 4,12mm - right: 4,08mm -- 41,1 gram

[LuckyLuudje]

I also found some pictures of a late/modern S&L that I had.

It is interesting because the same wreath is used on the common Assmann.
The wreath easy to recognize because it doesn't have balls on the wreath.
So again a relation with S&L????!!!!

Based on other Assmanns that will be discussed later, I do believe that S&L used the old stock from Assmann when it ended it's 57 production.
And you will see the same parts on Assmanns as on modern S&L's.

Some people IMO can make the mistake and "want" to believe that their badge is an Assmann.
But like I always say: If you already doubt if the badge IS an Assmann, it IS NOT an Assmann.
Assmanns are so distinqtive and full of quality that you will immediately KNOW that it IS an Assmann!

[LuckyLuudje]

Oke that was it sofar.
I hope it was usefull and not to chaotic.
I just noticed a type error in the title, but we have now 2 moderators that can change the name
The tekst might be full of type errors because I didn't read back what I have written because we are going out for dinner.

You can all shoot me with my thoughts I expressed about the Assmanns and I most likely cannot answer many questions because I am also shooting in the dark a lot.
And although I might be completely wrong, it is what I still believe from what I have seen sofar and read (although there isn't much written about Assmann yet).
I think this thread forms a base to discuss on further and with your thoughts it will maybe lead to uncovering the Assmann story!

[Nigel N]

Hi Luud!!
Firstly, a BIG thank you for starting this thread, you have spent a lot of time and effort on this with your words and many excellent photo's!!
Its not chaotic at all, quite easy to follow your thoughts, and your pics and descriptions really help, this is also the type of thread we can come back to at anytime to study the pieces, and where you can also come back to with more pics and any new information!!!
If something new comes to light that prooves or disprooves a theory, we can easily amend it over time as we learn more!!!
Very interesting to hear your thoughts on Assmann, especially about the possibility that S&L bought up old Assmann stock, actually i think S&L also did the same with some of Deumers old stock???
The rarity of Assmann pieces means there are'nt loads of them out there to study, but i'm sure we can learn quite a lot with threads like this!!
Any ideas on the Assmann timeline Luud??? When would you think they stopped production???
Thanks again for your hard work!!!!!!!happy0065.gif
-Nigel

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks Nigel

Very interesting to hear your thoughts on Assmann, especially abotu the possibility that S&L bought up old Assmann stock, actually i think S&L also did the same with some of Deumers old stock????

That is actually exactly what I think that has happend. There are a few leads to that but that will be something for another thread when I will get to other comparrison threads.
Sofar I also think that Deumer made or bought new working dies from S&L badges....only time is the biggest problem. And I don't want to make a to big of a fool of myself or give someone (or accomplicis) that could have problems with me in stead of the items give to much ammo to try to shoot me. So I just reveal my thought one by one and see where it will lead to

Any ideas on the Assmann timeline Luud??? When would you think they stopped production???

This is such a question where I am shooting in the dark
ONLY based on the Assmanns that I have and the details of the parts used on them, I think Assmann started from at the earliest beginning of the 57 production till around the mid sixties. But maybe others will have any leads that don't come from the items themself but from documents/catalogues that will proof otherwise.