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    #1

    1st Pattern "B" Frame RK Reference Thread

    To help clearly differentiate the various RK types, it is wise to create a thread dedicated to the characteristics of each cross.

    I've asked Mathijs to undertake this important project, so please refrain from posting in this thread until he has laid the foundation for each with detailed pics of each trait and the appropriate description of those traits. We'll "build" this thread and the relevant information from the ground up for those who know absolutely nothing about 1957 RK's.

    There will be a thread for each type and will be featured in our Links to Comparison and Reference Threads section. So, sit back and get ready to learn.

    Take it away...Mathijs!
    Last edited by Mike Yokum; 06-12-2012, 06:56 AM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for the kind words and trust ... will do my utmost best to make an overview of what I have in hand & try to share the information.
    Close-up pictures showing details and information on each KC as I go through my collection and its variants.

    But do give me some time .... I intend to do all in one week's time ( starting 25/06 ).
    Best you also make an Otto Schickle reference thread .... my favourite 1957 KC maker .

    Grtz
    Mathijs

    Comment

      #3
      Hi Mathijs,

      It's in your hands my friend! Take the time you need, there is NO hurry.

      From the chatter I've heard, we ALL look forward to an eye popping and informative thread.

      Comment

        #4
        Hi guys,

        Took a bit longer then expected, but will try to give an overview of the different types of 1957 issue "B" frame KC I've encountered.
        Even though I am honoured with the amount of trust Mike has put into my hands, I'm not an "expert" on the 1957 KC ... I just own quite a few .
        Also, I do not own or have not seen every single variant out there, so will be adding as time goes by.

        Would like to start this thread with - what I would like to call - a " reference KC ".
        Its a KC showing all characteristics every "B" frame KC should have to call it a "B" frame.

        This specimen is manufactured only by Steinhauer & Luck ( St&L further on ) ... made from 3 parts ( two pieces of frame enclosing the core ) .... holding a magnetic 1st pattern core.

        In that aspect, would already like to make a remark here ....

        Although its commonly accepted that the "B" frame only houses the 1st pattern core, its possible that there does exist a "B" frame holding the 2nd pattern core.
        This was already shown on my so called "Frankenstein KC", showing here : http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=odd

        But for now, lets stick to the 1st pattern core pieces .... off we go .

        Edit .... I must also apologize for my poor skills in PhotoShop and picture taking ( I'm using a simple cheap Sony digital camera and reworking the pix with MS Paint )
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Matthieu; 06-28-2012, 08:08 AM.

        Comment

          #5
          A key flaw of the "B" frame, the "knee flaw" can be found between the 6 and 9 o'clock arm. Its a small part of the frame's material wedged between both arms.

          Will not go into details of how dies are created and re-worked, as I have very little knowledge on that.
          One can only assume the flaws results from flaws in the main die ...
          Attached Files

          Comment

            #6
            Following the "knee flaw" the clearly visible "top beading flaws" are up next.

            The visibility ( or "severity" - if you may call it that ) of this flaw differs from KC to KC. Some show this type of flaw explicitly while with other examples it less visible.

            The flaw, as with the knee flaw, can be found on front-side / back-side of the KC ( presuming both joint frames are indeed "B").
            This type of flaw can be found on each arm, with exception of the 12 o'clock ( top ) arm.
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #7
              Next flaw .... the so called "dent row", which can be found only on the 3 o'clock arm. Difficult to see on this example, will be more clear on other specimen.
              Attached Files
              Last edited by Matthieu; 06-28-2012, 08:21 AM.

              Comment

                #8
                And also some attention to be spent to the loop eye and markings on the KC.

                The loop eye on the "B" frame shows two different variations :

                1. Completely drilled out loop eye ( as shown on top picture = reference cross )
                2. Partially drilled out loop eye ( as shown on bottom picture )

                Reason for this variant is unknown, however its assumed that the variant with completely drilled out loop eye is the earlier production one ( = better hand finish ).
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #9
                  End to end this short introduction, the marks which can be found on the "B" frame.

                  Whilst this reference piece has the "800" mark beneath the loop eye, you have following versions :

                  1. Unmarked
                  2. Marked "800" on top 12 o'clock arm
                  3. Marked "800" on bottom 6 o'clock arm

                  Not sure if the "935" version exists on the 1957 "B" frame ( but has been found on the postwar St&L version holding swastika ).

                  Again, thanks for looking, will try to add more variants shortly ....

                  Grtz
                  Mathijs
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Next variant already here ( still had the pix on file ).

                    St&L 3-piece made / magnetic core / 1st pattern core / "B" frame.

                    Variant here is the "B" frame with partially drilled out loop eye + "800" silver mark.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #11
                      And next variant as well while I'm at it ....

                      St&L 3-piece made / magnetic core / 1st pattern core / "B" frame.

                      Variant here is the "B" frame with partially drilled out loop eye - unmarked.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                        #12
                        And yet another variant .....

                        St&L 3-piece made / magnetic core / 1st pattern core / "B" frame.

                        Variant here is the "B" frame with completely drilled out loop eye - unmarked.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Oh..Oh...Teacher, I have a question...

                          I don't know if this is the right place to ask but I'm going to. Something I should have asked a long time ago but what do I look for to see if it's a three piece RK or even EK?? I apologize if this has been brought up before in another thread.
                          Regards
                          Rudy

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Hi Rudy!!
                            No harm in asking questions!!!
                            Theres a few things to look out for, some of which you can see in Mathijs' excellent photo's!!
                            There should be a seam running around the outside edge of the frame, even the best finishing usually leaves a visible line, where the back and front frames have been joined!
                            On the inside edges of the frame, you can often see a gap under the beading too, between the frame beading and the core itself, but some makers like Deschler painted or at least finished the core paint after assembly, and with those you cant always see a gap, and if the paint has run up onto the beading, it makes it look like a one piece, similar to very late S&L EK & RK's......
                            Also, i'll take this opportunity to thank Mathijs for his excellent work!!!!!!!!!
                            -Nigel
                            sigpic 57ers...."The Devil Is In The Detail"

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Thanks Nigel. I will look for those things on mine.

                              Hear, Hear to Mathijs. Excellent work. Many thanks.
                              Regards
                              Rudy

                              Comment

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