My 1st 57' - A Cased S&L RK 2. Pattern?

[AFF96]

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[AFF96]

Hi guys!
I don't collect 1957's. But just picked up from a good friend this 1957 cased S&L RK that I was told is a 2. Pattern? I know less than -0- about them, but thought it would go great with my other S&L RK's and S&L collection.
Is the 1. Pattern RK's made from wartime frames and 1957 cores?
Appreciate input and opinions!!
Thanks!!
Greg
1957 S&L 2. Pattern Cased RK with Extra's 001.jpg

1957 S&L 2. Pattern Cased RK with Extra's 002.jpg

[Matthieu]

Hello Greg,

What you have there is indeed a 2nd pattern core RK made by S&L.
Am I correct in saying that the core is non-magnetic ( later made core ) ?

Frame is definately not "B" or "C" frame ... strange to see the edges highly polished though ???
Could you tell of you see a row of dents ( what we call the dent row, which is visible on early 2nd pattern RK ) on the bottom part of the 3 o'clock arm ???

I've been dealing with 1st patterns lately, so I dropped somewhat on the 2nd patterns.
I wont be able to pinpoint date of manufacture ... could be modern, or mid-produced ....

Grtz
Mathijs

[George L]

Yes, this is a second pattern RK. Is the core magnetic?

For the 1st patterns, they're usually found with "B" type frames (broken war time die), but also found with a "C" type as well.

Welcome to 57's!

[AFF96]

Thanks guys!
I couldn't blow up the arm, but there maybe a dent row like my micro 800 & 935 S&L RK's. Here's the pic.
The core is magnetic.
Thanks!!
Greg
1957 S&L 2. Pattern Cased RK with Extra's 020.jpg

[panzerguy]

superb

beautiful set!!!

[jt327gir]

Very nice RK! Definitely NOT the modern junk crosses they're churning out today. Probably 1960s? But I'll let the others who know more than I do chime in.

[AFF96]

Very nice RK! Definitely NOT the modern junk crosses they're churning out today. Probably 1960s? But I'll let the others who know more than I do chime in.

Thanks! I sure would love to learn more about them.
Appreciate it!
Greg

Hello do you know if '57 crosses have the same specifications with the '39 ones? Do they have magnetic core and 3 piece construction?

[streptile]

Hi guys!
I don't collect 1957's. But just picked up from a good friend this 1957 cased S&L RK that I was told is a 2. Pattern? I know less than -0- about them, but thought it would go great with my other S&L RK's and S&L collection.
Is the 1. Pattern RK's made from wartime frames and 1957 cores?

Hi Greg,

Nice cross.

A "1. Pattern" just refers to the core type.

There were two (main) core types in use for 1957 RKs. In fact they were both in use right from the beginning, but one of them was phased out at some point. I believe it used to be thought that the one was in use before the other, thus it became known as the "1. Pattern" core. The other one, which was used right through the 1990s and perhaps even today, is the "2. Pattern" core, although (as I just mentioned) it was also in use right from the beginning -- or at least within a few months of the very beginning -- of the production of 1957 RKs.

There are also two frames generally found on 57er RKs: the S&L B-Type, and the S&L C-Type. With frames, we know that B preceded C, so a cross with a B Type frame is generally considered earlier than one with a C Type frame.

So overall you have two variables: 1 and 2 Pattern cores, and B and C type frames. Because the very earliest-made 1957 RKs are generally considered the most collectible, many 57 collectors will seek out B-Type frame / 1. Pattern core examples. I think Matthieu has a few very nice ones of this type, and perhaps he would provide a link to a photo of one, or show a picture here.

For you to see the difference in the core types, here is a photo of my old 1. Pattern core RK (which has since been stolen). Compare the oakleaves to your 2. Pattern core. This one has a C Type frame, and is thus not considered to be among the very earliest made:



Whether any 2. Pattern cores have ever been found in B-Type frames is something I do not know the answer to. Could someone tell me please? Is 2. Pattern core / B Type frame a possible combination for a 57er RK?

[Leroy]

Trevor,
Was the suspension ring on your former cross (sorry it was stolen!) with the "C" frame fully factory finished and the "dip" fully eliminated on both sides? If so, it would be the first one I've seen. In combination with the first pattern core, I would tend to think it was a very early "C" (which might also give some insight as to when that frame came into use).
Greg, that's a nice cross!
Best,
Leroy

[streptile]

Was the suspension ring on your former cross (sorry it was stolen!) with the "C" frame fully factory finished and the "dip" fully eliminated on both sides?

Hi Gentry,

I don't think so, at all. It seemed the standard 57er type of finishing to me, and to the others here on the forum. At least it got no comments. HERE are many more photos, and a discussion. What do you think, after looking at it?

And one photo for this thread:

[Leroy]

Thanks, Trevor, for the closer photo and link. In the photo originally posted here, it looked like perhaps the ring was fully finished to eliminate the "dip".

In fact, this appears to be a typical "C" frame, with the "dip", although better finished than most, and still perhaps suggestive of an early version of that frame. The later ones that I've seen have a "sandblasted" appearance to the metal.