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**DavidM** · 10-31-2009, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

Thanks for your explanation David!
I can only go by the examples in my own collection, and when comparing them, the style shown by Mike is better quality when it comes to paint, frosting, soldering, frame alignment etc...
I reckon the two styles overlapped, but the Souval/coke bottle style pin can also be found with semi open hingeblock and later thicker catch! Things i have'nt found on the thin pin examples as posted by Mike!

Hello

There was definately overlap both with pins, hinges (open and solid) and catches. There was thread a couple of years back on here in which an EK1 was posted that was proveably purchased in 1964, but looked like a mid produced item. Here's the link to the thread, but it appears taht Hardy (Naxos) has removed the photos. Perhaps he can repost them as they were very interesting reference points.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=EK1

Regards
David

**Nigel N** · 10-31-2009, 04:46 PM

Thanks for that David, its a pity the pics were removed, this is a good example of why the editing rules needed to be changed i think!
Bringing the Souval style pin into things is only confusing i think, Mike wanted to know if we thought this cross was 50's or 6O's, i'm still for 50's, but i think we are at least all agreed its an early one!!!

-Nigel

**LuckyLuudje** · 10-31-2009, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

the style shown by Mike is better quality when it comes to paint, frosting, soldering, frame alignment etc...
I reckon the two styles overlapped, but the Souval/coke bottle style pin can also be found with semi open hingeblock

One of the reasons why I quit looking at the hardware on 57's.
IMO many different hardwares have been used simultaniously.

I respectfully have to disagree with you.
But all the details that can be seen on the pictures It does make me think the oppostite.

But like you say, both are made very early and are beautifull that is what matters.

Attached Files

ekcomp.jpg (121.9 KB, 95 views)

**Nigel N** · 10-31-2009, 05:04 PM

Hi Luud, i think we will have to wait for Mike and Mathijs to post better pics, but the frames and cores may turn out to be the same, only the application of the paint being different, and as a sign of an early piece, i usually go with a matt painted core, but as you said they are both early and very nice!!

**streptile** · 10-31-2009, 06:34 PM

For what it's worth, my experience has been that the "Souval" pin type are by far the finest 57 EK1s in terms of quality: frosting, burnishing, soldering, paint application, everything. In some cases superior to their wartime counterparts.

**naxos** · 10-31-2009, 10:35 PM

David asked me to repost this EKI

- aquired for or at the 1968* Veteran's meeting of the 101st Jäger-Division in Offenburg.

* I checked the dates again and realized that the meeting the former owner attended was acctually held in 1968 (not 64 as I stated in an earlier thread)

Here the program and admittance badge

some pics:

**DavidM** · 11-01-2009, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by naxos View Post

David asked me to repost this EKI

- aquired for or at the 1968* Veteran's meeting of the 101st Jäger-Division in Offenburg.

* I checked the dates again and realized that the meeting the former owner attended was acctually held in 1968 (not 64 as I stated in an earlier thread)

Here the program and admittance badge

some pics:

Hello

Many thanks for this Hardy, very much appreciated

I can't recall, is the core magnetic (iron) and standard three piece construction?

Regards
David

**naxos** · 11-01-2009, 08:10 AM

Hi David,

Three piece construction with Magnetic core!

Regards, Hardy

**Nigel N** · 11-01-2009, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by streptile View Post

For what it's worth, my experience has been that the "Souval" pin type are by far the finest 57 EK1s in terms of quality: frosting, burnishing, soldering, paint application, everything. In some cases superior to their wartime counterparts.

Hi Trevor, its interesting to hear you say that, as i've found the complete opposite!!
All the EK1's i have with the thin pin like Mikes, have been of the highest quality in all departments! Of the ones i have with the Souval style pin, one is good quality and looks early, of the other three, one has a semi open hingeblock and later thick catch, one has poorly aligned frames and less than perfect soldering, and one has a bare metal backplate and hardware, is light as a feather and very "tinny"!! So even if you dont agree with me, you can at least see my thinking!!
The theory about Souval style pinned EK1's being the earliest is a good one, sound in theory, and normally i would agree, but my own EK's tell a different story!! You gotta love the mysterious 57ers!!!

-Nigel

**Nigel N** · 11-01-2009, 08:54 AM

Thanks for posting the pics again Hardy, 1968 sounds about right, as your EK has the later style of open hingeblock, but still well made and magnetic, thanks for showing!!!

-Nigel

**Mike Yokum** · 11-01-2009, 02:34 PM

I've been watching this discussion with great interest.

Here are my thoughts on what I've read so far.

If the premise put forth that core details are a major determining factor (which I agree with) then Hardy's cross with open hinge block, wide catch and matte paint, seen on the far right below, appears to be of earlier manufacture than the cross that started this thread. Perhaps the core is of early manufacture but was then set aside until used in the late 60's.

Perhaps the crispness of the core details on the cross that opened this thread are obscured by the thickness of the paint applied. Or perhaps an alternate die was used that was then retired. The frame details on the cross that opened this thread certainly appear less flawed and more crisp than the three crosses being compared IMHO.

So where are we in dating EK's? Needing more discussion and open minds!

Attached Files

ekcomp.jpg (104.3 KB, 80 views)

**Nigel N** · 11-01-2009, 02:41 PM

All good points Mike, i think theres a lot we just dont know, and perhaps never will, i've just had a thought about the pin differences, and there could be more to this than just one style being earlier than another!
Is it possible that S & L contracted out work to another firm,in the late 50's early 60's period, making crosses or hardware, or just assembling??? Just a quick idea, but who knowshuh.gif -Nigel

**Mike Yokum** · 11-01-2009, 02:42 PM

More food for thought - this S&L cross posted by Luud in another thread, which I think we would all agree to be of the earliest manufacture due to frame crispness and superb finishing, yet it has softer core details, similar to the one that started this thread.

Attached Files

P1290384kopie.jpg (233.4 KB, 81 views)

**Nigel N** · 11-01-2009, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by mbizy View Post

More food for thought - this S&L cross posted by Luud in another thread, which I think we would all agree to be of the earliest manufacture due to frame crispness and superb finishing, yet it has softer core details, similar to the one that started this thread.

Very true Mike, again i think this is down to the application of the paint, under there i'm sure the details are as crisp as can be

-Nigel

**Mike Yokum** · 11-01-2009, 02:56 PM

Agreed Nigel. There is much to learn.

In post #10 of this thread, Peter dates an EKII with very similar traits all around to 1957/58 manufacture - CLICK!

I just noticed Trevor's point about possible vaulting! I sure hope you're right my friend! The shadows in the reverse side scan look as though it could be, but in hand examination is needed.

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