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**jt327gir** · 10-24-2009, 08:02 PM

Very nice and early S&L!

**Nigel N** · 10-25-2009, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by jt327gir View Post

Very nice and early S&L!

Cheers John!!!

**streptile** · 10-25-2009, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

they are obviously S & L cores and frames, coupled with Souval pins!
So.... did S & L buy a load of pins from Souval and put them on their crosses, or did Souval buy frames and cores from S&L and put their own hardware on them?

We do call them Souval pins, but they're probably S&L manufactured. I think there are differences between this pin system, and the wartime ones by Souval that we commonly associate them with. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think so... so I'm not even sure there was any relationship to Souval here.

I'll try to dig up some photos and compare them.

**George L** · 10-25-2009, 10:57 PM

That's all, Nigel?

Man, I gave up on an 1st patt RK a while back, and was convinced it was gone after 8 weeks. Guess what? She showed up after 3 months! The box was mangled so bad you'd think a gorilla was punching it! See pic of how the box arrived! I can only guess it either disappeared in some processing machine during that time!

Luckily, the seller did a great job packing it so it was not only still in the box, but undamaged, too.

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

Hi guys, normally the mail takes 4 days to get from Germany from England, but this one, i was waiting for, for.... 7 weeks!!!!

Anyway, its another S & L EK1, this time with the Souval pin.......[ATTACH]1328149[/ATTACH]

Attached Files

box.jpg (31.9 KB, 95 views)

**George L** · 10-25-2009, 11:07 PM

Rk

The late RK that finally arrived after 3 months! I was in the process of filing a claim with painpal when it finally arrived...

Attached Files

33c1_3.jpg (99.1 KB, 95 views)

**Matthieu** · 10-26-2009, 06:36 AM

Painpal

.... Good one George

.

**Nigel N** · 10-26-2009, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by streptile View Post

We do call them Souval pins, but they're probably S&L manufactured. I think there are differences between this pin system, and the wartime ones by Souval that we commonly associate them with. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think so... so I'm not even sure there was any relationship to Souval here.

I'll try to dig up some photos and compare them.

Hi Trevor, heres a comparison between a wartime produced Souval EK1 (on the right) and an S & L 57er with Souval pin (on the left)
It does'nt make sense to me for S & L to change their pin style, and then change it back, or to manufacture two styles of pin at the same time

57%20%26%20TR%20Souvals.jpg

**Nigel N** · 10-26-2009, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by George L View Post

That's all, Nigel?

Man, I gave up on an 1st patt RK a while back, and was convinced it was gone after 8 weeks. Guess what? She showed up after 3 months! The box was mangled so bad you'd think a gorilla was punching it! See pic of how the box arrived! I can only guess it either disappeared in some processing machine during that time!

Luckily, the seller did a great job packing it so it was not only still in the box, but undamaged, too.

Very nice early RK George, well worth the wait!! I wonder where it had been for 3 months......huh.gif

**Mike Yokum** · 10-26-2009, 05:23 PM

Late to another party I am. It's becoming a trend my friends! Please don't think for a moment that I'm not interested in your great new stuff, I'm just working long hours and giving the remaining time to family.

Anyway, Nigel I'm relieved for you that this long overdue cross finally arrived! The frosting is really quite nice. Like you, I look for a definitive answer on the maker. I can't say with certainty, but I'm leaning towards S&L with Souval purchased pins. It's all conjecture though.

Nice crosses David and Geo!

**George L** · 10-26-2009, 08:43 PM

Thanks all!

Ok, so I might be alone on this, but I think the wide pin S&L is the earliest type of hardware used on an EKI, and what followed later matched the hardware found on later pieces, a semi-flat pin.

Nigel, I say this because that pin setup for what you've labeled 'Souval' matches dead nuts exactly what's on S&L's early CCC's, and this recon clasp, but in longer form -
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=330604

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

Hi Trevor, heres a comparison between a wartime produced Souval EK1 (on the right) and an S & L 57er with Souval pin (on the left)
It does'nt make sense to me for S & L to change their pin style, and then change it back, or to manufacture two styles of pin at the same time

[ATTACH]1330066[/ATTACH]

**streptile** · 10-26-2009, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by George L View Post

Thanks all!

Ok, so I might be alone on this, but I think the wide pin S&L is the earliest type of hardware used on an EKI, and what followed later matched the hardware found on later pieces, a semi-flat pin.

Nigel, I say this because that pin setup for what you've labeled 'Souval' matches dead nuts exactly what's on S&L's early CCC's, and this recon clasp, but in longer form -
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=330604

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Honestly, I agree with you based on the quality of manufacture in these "wide-pin" or "Souval-pin" pieces. I think they are the earliest new-forms.

As for the match to the wartime Souval pin ... Souval could have sourced parts from S&L during the war. Many jewelers did. I haven't ever held one of the wartime Souvals the S&L pin is supposed to match (like the one you show, Nigel). Does it have the hash-marks near the hinge, like the S&L 57 EKs? Are you sure it's identical, looking at it? I trust your eye, having it in-hand. But I will say they look different to me:

The other possibility is that the Souval swastika EKs with this pin were made postwar, having sourced parts from S&L then. With Souval, it's guilty until proven innocent in my book (thanks, Luud

).

**Nigel N** · 10-27-2009, 05:35 AM

All great theories guys!! To answer your question Trevor, the pins look "the same" but "identical" is a tough call, as you know you can line up a half dozen EK's from the same maker, and have differences in pins etc.
George, thats a good idea too, but i have one EK1 that has the "Souval" style pin, but with the later thick catch and a later semi-solid hingeblock, so that does'nt fit the timeline....medals 448.jpg

**Nigel N** · 10-27-2009, 05:36 AM

Side view.....medals 449.jpg....I love a good mystery!!!!!!!

**Nigel N** · 10-27-2009, 05:55 AM

Heres a pic of the 4 EK1's i've got with this style of pin, 3 with the earlier thin catch, and 1 with the later thick version. To me these crosses come from a time period of several years, as there are other differences between them too, including matt/ glossy core paint, frosting etc.
While i think they are all "early" period, i'm not sure if i'd date any to the very first production in 1957.....medals.jpg

**Nigel N** · 10-27-2009, 05:58 AM

A front view of the same four........medals 450.jpg

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One i'd given up on!!!!

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