I've been offered a 1957 1st Pattern Ritterkreuz --> Opinions Please!

[streptile]

Hi guys,

I have been offered this RK at a fair price. I've never owned (or held) a 1957 1st Pattern RK, and would greatly value your thoughts on this one in advance of purchase. I am posting this with the seller's full blessing, and want to hear from those of you who know what's what with these babies. This would be a large investment for me so please do not hesitate to offer your informed and candid opinions.

Here is what I know:

1) 800 marked on the reverse, magnetic core. No repairs, glue, or damage of any kind. Very nicely soldered together.
2) Ribbon loop - apparently the "800" marked ribbon loop may be an original WW2 piece. Any thoughts?
3) Ribbon - possibly wartime version also? I don't know how to judge.
4) Case - said to be an early 57 type. it has a line around the top lid. Good?
5) There are no flaws to the beading. What could this mean?
6) Seller is a trustworthy member of our community.

Here are some photos from the seller (rather large, for detail):











I thank you all, certainly including the seller, in advance.

[Mian_Tang]

Hello, from the pictures I personally like this cross, it is the first pattern KC, but IMO not from the first production. Did you get a chance to ask the seller if the core is magnetic?

[Matthieu]

Hello Trever, I think its an original one ... cant comment on the case, though. However, I have no experience with a 1st pattern myself, I only have / collect 2nd pattern ... I'm sure one of the other members will ease your mind !

[Seewolf]

First of all....IMHO an original one which i would take without a doubt. We can see the rest of the frosting on the frame, which the very early types had...i think in the 50s and from the 60s they were only polished.
It´s not the B-type frame full of flaws, so don´t ask yourself why there a no ones.
The loop, case and ribbon are things where i can´t say anything about - sorry, have to learn more about that.

I would say "Buy it"


I would be glad if someone makes me such an offer in december

so let´s wait for our RK cracks, think they can tell us more about all

[U-Boot Kapitan]

1st Pattern S & L RK & much later case

Hi All,

The case is of the very latest type supplied by S & L today.

The cross on the other hand, as others have already said, is a NICE early one .

Regards,
Jay

[George L]

Hi Jay, I thought only the earlier ones had the line impressed on top of the lid?

Hi All,

The case is of the very latest type supplied by S & L today.

The cross on the other hand, as others have already said, is a NICE early one .

Regards,
Jay

[Mike Yokum]

Hi Trevor and gents,

This is a very nice cross of early manufacture. The remaining frosting is very nice. I believe the frames were made using worn wartime dies - note the beading on the 12 o'clock arm. The jump ring looks good to me too. The case does appear to be of more recent manufacture than the cross, but wil take a more trained eye than mine to confirm. My early case has no line around the top, but I don't know for certain that that makes this case later produced.

Well, I showed what I know about frames eh?

[streptile]

Thank you all for your opinions. I really appreciate them.

Did you get a chance to ask the seller if the core is magnetic?

The core is magnetic, Mian.

I've also posted the loop and ribbon in the Crosses of the Wehrmacht section. Honestly, it doesn't really matter to me if the ribbon or loop are wartime-made, but I thought I'd see what folks over there have to say about them.

I would love to hear from Mike (Mbizy), DavidM, Nigel and Peter Wiking, if you guys have a moment.

[streptile]

Oh, hey Mike. I posted using an unrefreshed page, so didn't see that you'd already weighed in here.

Jason, thank you for the info on the case. I think the price is reasonable even though the case may be a later one, but as George asked (and because I don't know myself): can someone confirm that the case is later?

Rüdiger and Mike, thank you for clearing up my question on the frames and flaws. So is it safe to say that this is an S&L "A-type" frame?

Thanks again, everyone.

[Leroy]

And who is the maker of this cross? Not really just a rhetorical question, either.

It's a beautiful cross and I certainly would be happy to have it.

Is it possible to see close-ups of the 9-12 o'clock arm area, the 6-9 o'clock arm juncture and the 3 o'clock lower arm?

[streptile]

Hi Leroy,
Hope this is what your after?

Is it possible to see close-ups of the 9-12 o'clock arm area...

...the 6-9 o'clock arm juncture...

...and the 3 o'clock lower arm?

[Leroy]

Thanks very much for these photos!

There are things about this frame which I honestly don't understand (the "waviness" at the top left of the 12 o'clock arm, the two beading projections on the 3 o'clock arm near the inner juncture with the 6 o'clock arm, what APPEARS to be at least part of a "dent row" on the lower 3 o'clock arm...)
Frankly, I'm not 100% sure it is an S&L frame (although I am leaning that way!).

It would be interesting to see what Dietrich thinks of this. In the meantime (and I hate to bother you again) is it possible to get angle shots of the lower 3 o'clock arm showing the beading of the entire lower arm?

A really nice-looking 57 cross!

[Nigel N]

hi Treevor, i think you've had some good replies from the guys already, but heres what i think... it looks to be a nice early cross, core detail looks good, but the frame is not the best i've seen for an early 1st pattern, but i suppose like EK's these can vary! the loop seems fine, ribbon too, but the case does'nt look to have much age to it! still a nice RK i think, and if its not too expensive, go for it!! -Nigel

[streptile]

In the meantime (and I hate to bother you again) is it possible to get angle shots of the lower 3 o'clock arm showing the beading of the entire lower arm?

I can't provide these and I am hesitant to ask the seller, who has been great with photos, terms, everything. However, I am buying this cross, so I will post the photos when I receive it.

It would be interesting to see what Dietrich thinks of this.

Yes, I do hope we hear from him.

So is there a consensus that this is not an S&L "A-type" frame? Or is that just Leroy's working hypothesis?

[Leroy]

Trevor,
I don't have any working theory yet!

I'd love to see more photos when you get this cross (which I think you were smart to buy!).
Leroy