Here is a picture of the women who gave me this helmet, with the helmet on the table in her house. After keeping it for 60 years and two weeks, she gave it to me...
-
-
Today, a person sent me the following message that probably explains the triangle on the helmet:
"In the farm, there was a liner with nearly rotten suspension, rusty
shell with straps BUT the outline of a triangle on the liner and on the
shell (with a little bit of paper). It was in the 3rd armored area and this
unit glued paper insignas on the helmets
In my opnion the repainted layer could have been done around or over
the insignia. At any rate the insignia vanished, leaving the triangle."
I did a little web search, and found the picture below, where a guy seams to have one of these triangles on his helmet.
One more thing to clear up thow: was the 118th Field Artillery, of the 30th Infantry Division ever attached to the 3rd Armoured Division, as when I spoke with the vet who owned the helmet, he told me he was in the 118th FA.
Can anyone help with this? The composition of an armoured unit is a complete mystery for me. Also does anyone have a similar picture with a glued insignia visible?Last edited by Jean-Loup; 06-21-2005, 07:24 AM.Comment
-
Here is some info for the 118th FA 30th INF DIV. I know the time frame is not Aug 1944, but this is what they where doing in the ARDENNES 16-25 DEC 1944.
www.30thinfantry.org/ardennes.docComment
-
Good Order of Battle link:
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents.../etoob-toc.htm
It shows the 118th FA attached to the 30th Infantry but it is not listed as detached at anytime. 3rd Armor also does not show it as an attachment.
Jack TComment
-
Here is another for history on the 30th INF DIV
www.army.mil/cmh/documents/ETO-OB/30id-eto.htm
If you notice in the section Attachments you will see units from the 3rd Armor DIV.Comment
-
Thanks for the help, but I am not used to understanding the composition of US units, and all this doesnt make much sense for me.
Would it be logical for the guy to have the 3rd Armoured triangle on his helmet if he himself was actually in an artillery unit? Does Field artillery include half tracks with canons, etc?
I got this email from a guy who runs a 30th ID site: "My memory says yes,(the 30th ID was attached to) the 3rd Armored after Str. Lo. Maybe somewhere the another, but not sure which. I have forwarded your inquiry to the man who has the history books. Best to you. Tom"
JLComment
-
JL,
I'll give it a shot. The 3rd Armored and 30th Infantry are Divisions. Each division is made up of battalion and company size units. Around 600-800 men in a battlion depending on the type. A Division is a constantly changing unit in wartime. There are battalions which are permantently attached to the Division which are called "organic". Then there are "Attached" units which are added to the Division for a specific mission or functions. The Division may also "Detach" a battalion for a short while, in effect letting another Division borrow it.
The units under a division wore the division patches.
The 30th Infantry had the following Organic units.
ORGANIC UNITS
117th Infantry
119th Infantry
120th Infantry
30th Reconnaissance Troop (Mecz)
105th Engineer Combat Battalion
105th Medical Battalion
30th Division Artillery
118th Field Artillery Battalion (105 Howitzer)
197th Field Artillery Battalion (105 Howitzer)
230th Field Artillery Battalion (105 Howitzer)
113th Field Artillery Battalion (155 Howitzer)
Special Troops
730th Ordnance Light Maintenance Company
30th Quartermaster Company
30th Signal Company
Military Police Platoon
Headquarters Company Band
If you look at the website I noted. You can see a listing of when different units were atttached and detached and the dates. I have never seen a division attached to another division. Usually Divisions would be attached to another Corp or Army group not each other.
Hope that helps. Others may be able to give a better explanation.
Jack TComment
-
Yes, that clears it up quite well. But it seams a bit ilogical for a guy manning a 105 howitzer to have an Armoured Brigade triangle on his helmet, wouldnt you say? Or maybe not
.
Anyhow, the helmet is 100% original, maybe it belonged to two different people at two different points in time...
JLComment
-
Dependswhat type of field artillery unit they were. Could be mobile or self-propelled. Self-porpelled would be tracked M-7 Priests with 105mm guns. Mobile would be towed.
As to how it got the Armored Triangle, no clue. Records could be wrong. The individual could have been transfered between units and not switched his helmet id. The 3rd Armored had Field Artillery units too. He could have been a specialist and transfered over to the 30th Infantry at some point. Interesting mystery.
Jack TComment
-
Not illogical at all. Note that the red section in the Armored Div triangle is for Field Artillery. Armored Divisions in WWII had Artillery and Infantry units as well.
Vance
Originally posted by Jean-LoupYes, that clears it up quite well. But it seams a bit ilogical for a guy manning a 105 howitzer to have an Armoured Brigade triangle on his helmet, wouldnt you say? Or maybe not .
Anyhow, the helmet is 100% original, maybe it belonged to two different people at two different points in time...
JLComment
-
Armored divisions had one infantry regiment which was organic to them.
I've seen these armored division helmets with paper decals on them. A friend of mine even has one. I always thought they were post WWII/immediate occupation period. Will try to obtain a pic but my friend travels a lot.
Regards,
Cesar.Comment
-
OK, thanks for the replies guys.
JLComment
-
This is the type of armored decal I refered to in a previous posting. I think it looks quite larger than the blank triangular space left out in JL's helmet.Comment
-
Some sad news from Philidelphia:
CIARROCCHI
GEORGE C. Sept 23, 2005 WWII Veteran, recipient of 5 Bronze Stars and 1 Silver Star and Business Manager of the original Chickie's & Pete's Cafe; father of Theresa (Sergio) Munoz and the late Marietta DeCecco; grandfather of 6 and 5 great grandchildren; dear brother of Yolanda Litchman, Florence Pistone, Frank (Terry) and the late Joseph, William, James and Peter,. Relatives and friends are invited to his Viewing Wed. 7 to 9 PM and Thurs 8:30 to 9:30 AM, CARTO FUNERAL HOME, INC., 2212-14 S. Broad St. Funeral Mass 10 A.M. Annunciation Church, Int. Arlington National Cem. Arlington VA.
Published in the Philadelphia Inquirer/Philadelphia Daily News from 9/27/2005 - 9/29/2005.Comment
-
It is sad to hear of another WWII veteran passing away. It is said they are dying at the rate of over 1000 every day.
Here is a link to a page of original 3rd Armored Division photos. Go the eighth photo down, and on the far right of the photo, you will see the 3rd Armored triangle on the left side of the tank commander's helmet.
http://36thair3ad.homestead.com/Orig...os36thAIR.html
You can also see this decal on the helmets of the men on the right side of the photo of Major General Rose's funeral at this link:
http://36thair3ad.homestead.com/GenRose.html
The decal on the right side of the helmet, as seen on the men on the left in the funeral photo is the 3rd Armored Spearhead insignia - a red spearhead shape on a sort of oval yellow background.
A 3rd Armored veteran friend of mine said they were issued these decals, but not everyone put them on their helmets. This occurred before the end of the war.
Hope this helps.
SteveComment
Comment