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    #16
    more on WW2 U.S. Navy Flags ???

    For those who might be interested in more information on WW2 U.S. Navy flags,
    here is a period article from Popular Science Oct 1941, pages 49-51. Enjoy.
    .................. OLDFLAGSWANTED ................

    <h4>
    "Flags for Our Navy - Busy Loft at Brooklyn Yard Keeps Fleet's Colors Flying. Keeping
    its growing fleet of ships supplied with the proper flags and pennants is just one of the
    jobs that is keeping the Navy busy these days. It's a bigger job than you might suspect,
    for the Navy needs hundreds of thousands of flags a year, and much of the work that
    goes into them must be done by hand, even in this age of machines. If all the flags were
    of one kind, the job would be a lot easier than it is. But Navy vessels, in addition to American
    flags, or ensigns, as they are known in the Navy, and commisission pennants, must have a
    number of complete sets of alphabet and numeral flags for signaling, flags to show when
    church services are being held aboard, flags to indicate the rank and command of flag officers
    aboard, and countless others. Any ship visiting a foreign country must be prepared to fly the
    national ensign of that country when in port. Altogether, the Navy flag makers must make
    more than 200 different flags.

    The more commonly used flags, such as the ensign, have to be replaced frequently, too,
    because in windy weather or when doing duty on speedy craft such as destroyers or
    torpeado boats, they may be whipped to pieces in a few weeks. Back in the days of peace
    and the depression, the Navy used to repair some of its less battered ensigns, but now
    there's no time for that, and wornout ones are discarded.

    Most of the Navy flags come from the flag and sail loft of the New York Navy Yard, in
    Brooklyn, N.Y., which is the largest loft of its kind in the world. Right now it has close to
    475 women working in three eight-hour shifts every day and turning out more than 3,000
    flags a week. The Navy's other sources of flag supply are lofts in the yards at Mare Island,
    San Francisco, and Cavite, Philipine Islands.

    More ensigns than any other kind of flag are made at the New York yard, because the
    demand for them is greatest. These range from two feet to as much as 36 feet in length,
    though only a few of the latter size have ever been made. With the aid of special sewing
    machines, average size ensigns can be turned out at a rate of 30 or 40 an hour. To simplify
    their manufacture, the work is broken down so that one person performs only one
    operation on each flag, and then passes it along to someone else.

    Red and whire bunting is laid out on a 50-foot-long table, sometimes as much as 50 layers
    of it, and cut into strips for the stripes with electrically driven rotary knives. These are then
    sewn together with a double-folded seam so that there is no danger of the seam ripping or
    leaving exposed edges which might fray in the wind.

    Stars for the "union" of the ensign are cut from white wool bunting with a stamping machine
    which punches out 50 stars at a clip. These are pasted on each side of the blue field to hold
    them in place while they are stitched on. Union and stripes are then sewed together, canvas
    bindings, halyards, and hooks are fastened to the staff side in a single operation and the flag
    is complete.

    Throughtout the operation, in accordance with Navy regulations which state that no U.S. ensign
    shall be allowed to drag on the deck, floor, or ground, the flags are kept off the floor. If they are
    so big that they cannot be kept on the sewing-machine table while they are being made, paper is
    spread on the floor to catch the folds that fall.

    One flag which does not have to be made often is that of the President of the United States. When
    there is a call for one, however, it takes a skilled worker two full weeks to turn it out. The flag is
    a square blue field with yellow-tasselled border, four white stars in the corners, and the President's
    seal embroidered in the center. Part of the design of the seal is embroidered with a special sewing
    machine, but the more intricate parts must be made by hand. The flag is made of silk instead of
    bunting, and consequently wears much longer. Silk is used as well for special flags of cabinet
    officers and high-ranking Navy officers.

    Probably the easiest flags to make are the international code flags and pennants. Most of these
    are combinations of two colors, and the flags representing the letters of the alphabet are just a
    bit longer than they are high, while the numerals are all long, tapered pennants.

    Even here, however, it would be possible to stitch the pieces together wrong. In the letter H,
    for instance, which is two vertical stripes, one white and one red, the white stripe must always
    be placed so that it will be next to the staff when hoisted. In the letter Y, made of alternate
    diagonal stripes of red and yellow, the upper corner at the staff side must be yellow, and the
    stripes must run upwards from the staff to the opposite side. To prevent mistakes in making
    these flags, copies of them are painted on the walls of the loft, together with various Navy
    signal flags denoting formations, maneuvers, and courses.

    When the flagmakers are not busy stitching bunting or silk flags, they are put to work making
    boat cloths, to drape over the seats of small boats and keep the officers' uniforms clean; green
    wool covers for the tables in the wardrooms; upholstery for officers' quarters; curtains, and
    occasionally even pillow cases.

    Not long ago the flag and sailmakers loft had to be moved to a larger building, because there
    wasn't room enough in the old quarters. Now the Navy Yard officials are looking around for
    still more room. A two-ocean Navy is going to use just about twice as many flags as a one-
    ocean fleet, and it looks as though the Navy flag makers are going to have their hands full
    for some time to come." </h4>









    <!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->
    Last edited by oldflagswanted; 04-23-2010, 01:24 PM.
    sigpic
    .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

    Comment


      #17
      I have one from the USS Razorback. It has 4 grommets. My dad in law was given to him by the Commander during his stint in the Pacific. It is torn up on the ends. Bill

      Comment


        #18
        48 star flag ???

        Originally posted by historiknut View Post
        I have one from the USS Razorback. It has 4 grommets.
        My dad in law was given to him by the Commander during
        his stint in the Pacific. It is torn up on the ends. Bill
        Hello Bill:
        Do post a photo. What is the size, maker and date?
        With four grommets it sounds US Navy Yard made.

        OFW
        (below) four grommet USN example...
        Attached Files
        sigpic
        .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

        Comment


          #19
          The flag I have is only marked U.S.ENSIGN NO.1 M 1 MAY 1943. I cannot tell you what the length is since it has been wind and salt damaged. Here is what I can measure. 27" x 57" stars 1 1/2" across stripes 2 1/4" wide 14" x 22" field section. It has seen the elephant. Story told from the horses mouth. He was a proud torpedo man. He had dimensia towards the end and kept telling his story.

          Comment


            #20
            I have a picture of this very flag on the sub.

            Comment


              #21
              Could it be actually Ensign number 12 ?

              The bigger the number the smaller the flag. A number 1 is the largest at 20' x 38'. No. 12 is the smallest at 1.31' x 2.49'

              I love these flags that were actually flown. I have a No 7 from an LST ( still trying to ID the ship, the guys grandfather was the Captain and the guys grandmother christened it. - he had photos of both and was supposed to make me copies...
              http://militarycollectorshq.com/

              sigpic

              Comment


                #22
                Jerry, the 1 is next to a rusty eyelet. Very possible the other number was covered. I just found out my membership has been expired so I cannot post the flag until I update it. The picture is on US Militaria Forum under uniforms. Titled Torpedo man grouping. I will be posting pics on here soon. Bill

                Comment


                  #23
                  M I = Mare Island ...

                  Originally posted by historiknut View Post
                  ...flag I have is only marked ...M 1 MAY 1943.
                  ...measure. 27" x 57" stars 1 1/2" across stripes
                  2 1/4" wide 14" x 22" field section. It has seen the
                  elephant. ...
                  hn:
                  "M 1 MAY 1943", is actually M I ... which is
                  the now closed USN Mare Island Navy Yard
                  in California, which made ~70K flags a month
                  during WW2, the sail loft working 3 shifts a day.
                  OFW

                  (below) some of the WW2 Mare Island made flags,
                  for supply to every ship in the fleet multiple issues.
                  sigpic
                  .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

                  Comment


                    #24
                    It's unfortunate that we don't have more info about the flag that started this thread. We all wish we could go back and ask more questions about things we own. Clearly the vet kept this flag due to its importance to him and he passed it on to ensure its survival. That would be enough for me. Very cool piece.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      I agree. I have been collecting military for years and most of from the vets or wives. Most of it I have recorded and still much of it I didn't. I began collecting displaced dog tags, then Civil War and now almost anything. Most history of collectibles are lost in the past. The flag above will probably never be identified to any one certain ship. My dad in law would talk everything about his experience more than once, saved, kept everything in neat order. The flag has a story and was told many times. Bill

                      Comment


                        #26
                        I am thinking of donating this flag to the Naval museum. If by chance they do not use it will they return it? Probably not? They would probably preserve it better than I can. What do you think?

                        Comment


                          #27
                          I generally do not like museums, as museums generally do not like collectors.
                          Most of what you see on permanent display isn't even real, but "good enough" for the general public.

                          Flags are difficult for them to display, sensitive to light and pressure, and as such remain locked away in flat storage shelving units out of the light of day. Unless a flag has particular significance, it would be just be given an accession number, with a meager description "Flag, US, 48 stars, tattered" that is of little use to future researchers.

                          Sorry but I have not had the best of luck lately working with museums on my WW1 & WW2 flag book project.

                          Jerry
                          http://militarycollectorshq.com/

                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            #28
                            at best, and at worst ???

                            Originally posted by Mr.Jerry D View Post
                            I generally do not like museums, as museums
                            generally do not like collectors. ...Flags are
                            difficult for them ... as such remain locked away ...
                            Jerry
                            MJD:
                            Ditto that, at best IMO the flag would never
                            see daylight again, and at worst be given to the
                            local flag burning ceremony bozos - sadly many
                            a great old flag has unfortunately gone that way.

                            OFW
                            (below) example of saved American History...
                            Attached Files
                            sigpic
                            .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

                            Comment

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