Reproduction Alert!!

[Garth Thompson]

Thought everyone should know and see an example of this reproduction SOOCHOW CREEK medal circulating around. It is a cast piece named to Stanley F. Watson. This is the second one I've seen in 6 months named to the same guy. A real Soochow Creek is a scarce unofficial pre-WW2 medal. Both the copy pieces I saw were priced just enough below market value that a collector who hasn't seen this example might think he slipped up on a bargain.
Garth

Medal obverse

[Garth Thompson]

Medal reverse:

[jeremiahcable]

Thanks!

Thanks for the warning on these Garth. Does anyone have a good example to post for comparision?

Jeremiah

[GLM]

Thanks for the warning on these Garth. Does anyone have a good example to post for comparision?

Jeremiah

Jeremiah - The only reference I have on this 3rd Type 1937 SOOCHOW CREEK medal is from an excellent article written for OMSA Vol. 26, No. 8, August 1975 Medal Collector. The original medals pictured in this article are done in black and white, but from comparing Garth's photo with the B&W's and reading the description of how the medals were finished, I'd say this fake is an exact "knock-off" of an original, most likely done from an original example.

Garth points out that the examples he saw were cast, so that's a good sign. According to the article, the originals were two dark thin copper electroplated shells sweated together with some examples being gold plated or guilded.

Interesting note: These medals could be purchased from 4th Marines offices for $2.00 and the certificate stated the recipient " Is hereby authorized to wear the Soo Chow Creek Medal at all times and under all circumstances (except while in uniform).

Garth - Thanks for the heads up!

Gary

[pfrost]

I think this is a fantasy piece. I have a named Soo Chow medal and USN good conduct medal to the same guy (not only marines had these!). I think mine is the 1937 version, but I always forget. I will try to get it scanned some time in the near future and post it up. This medal shown here doesn't look ANYTHING like the one I have. On the front, it has a little man with his "honey cart" and on the back it says something like what is shown.

The guy on my medal was researched out to a ship deployed in China in the mid 1930's.

Patrick Frost

Jeremiah - The only reference I have on this 3rd Type 1937 SOOCHOW CREEK medal is from an excellent article written for OMSA Vol. 26, No. 8, August 1975 Medal Collector. The original medals pictured in this article are done in black and white, but from comparing Garth's photo with the B&W's and reading the description of how the medals were finished, I'd say this fake is an exact "knock-off" of an original, most likely done from an original example.

Garth points out that the examples he saw were cast, so that's a good sign. According to the article, the originals were two dark thin copper electroplated shells sweated together with some examples being gold plated or guilded.

Interesting note: These medals could be purchased from 4th Marines offices for $2.00 and the certificate stated the recipient " Is hereby authorized to wear the Soo Chow Creek Medal at all times and under all circumstances (except while in uniform).

Garth - Thanks for the heads up!

Gary

[GLM]

Patrick,

The one shown in this thread is the 3rd type made in 1937. There were 3 distinct types made for the SOOCHOW CREEK MEDAL that year. 1st and 2nd types had the refuse collector with the honey cart. 1st type didn't have the U.S. MARINES ribbon brooch, 2nd type came with the brooch and 3rd type had the obverse design changed completely to what is shown.

If yours is from the mid 1930's, it's probably the 1932 SOOCHOW CREEK MEDAL which is identical to the 1st and 2nd pattern 1937 (minus U.S. MARINES brooch) with only difference being dates.

Gary

I think this is a fantasy piece. I have a named Soo Chow medal and USN good conduct medal to the same guy (not only marines had these!). I think mine is the 1937 version, but I always forget. I will try to get it scanned some time in the near future and post it up. This medal shown here doesn't look ANYTHING like the one I have. On the front, it has a little man with his "honey cart" and on the back it says something like what is shown.

The guy on my medal was researched out to a ship deployed in China in the mid 1930's.

Patrick Frost

[GLM]

...I have a named Soo Chow medal and USN good conduct medal to the same guy (not only marines had these!).
Patrick Frost

Patrick,

Just caught this part of your post. The article in OMSA states that these medals, sold in 4th Marines Regimental offices cost $2.00. Back then, that was a lot of money that could be used for other, more important things , so my guess is more sailors than Marines purchased them? Strictly an unauthorized "joke" medal commemorating the 4th Marines unsavory task of protecting the "International Community" against Japanese aggression, thus, the "honey cart" logo. The Marine saying, "One good deal after another!" was first coined, I believe, in China.

Gary

[pfrost]

Here is my SooChow creek medal and USN GC medal. Both named. I used to know if this was the 2nd or 3rd or 4A or X pattern, but I forgot. This fellow was in China in the 1930s (again, I have also forgotten, but I think he was on a destroyer).

He lived in Oxnard after the war and I bought these at a local flea market.

Patrick

BTW, not for sale.

[pfrost]

back

The 1941 bar is also named on the back with the fellow's initials. Never seen that before. He left the Navy just before Pearl Harbor was attacked.

[GLM]

Patrick,

Some very nice medals! As you probably know, the ribbon and brooch on your SOO CHOW CREEK medal have been replaced from the original yellow and brown ribbon and U.S. MARINES brooch. The author of the OMSA article states that he also has an engraved Navy SCC medal with the same replaced ribbon. I've copied the paragraph from the article for you. Very nice and quite desirable medal! Because I've never encountered one of these original Soo Chow Creek medals and out of pure curiosity, can you tell me if the lines where the obverse and reverse of the medal's two pieces were sweated together are noticeable on the rim?

Some of my older USMC GCM reenlistment bars have the original Enlistment medal number and new date of reenlistment engraved on the back with 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Enlistment engraved to the front. I'm not sure about Navy GCM bars, but with the 1941 date on the front of yours, it would stand to reason that his initials or some other identifying info. would be put on the back. Interesting that you say he got out of the Navy before Pearl Harbor? His medal is engraved 1937 for his beginning date of original enlistment and his reenlistment bar is dated 1941 which would be his 2nd Enlistment starting date. I, for one, think you should do some further research on this sailor. To me, it would appear that he was in for Pearl Harbor?

Gary

[pfrost]

Howdy Gary,

Some place in the chaos I call my "reference pile" I also have that article. It has been some time since I last looked at it, however.

I believe that the ribbon is actually original to the medal and not a replacement. If it represents a variation at the time, a "navy" specific award, or some other meaning, I have no idea, but I find it hard to credit at least 2 medals having the same replacement ribbon. I suspect that some variations existed--I mean, this wasn't rocket science or German engineering! Perhaps a lot of medals were made up for the Marines and a lot were made up for the Navy? Still, I am pretty positive that it isn't a replacement.

I don't have the medal in front of me, but best I can recall, it is made up with two pieces as described.

As for Jack Rennie, I did do as much research on him as I could. I may be wrong since I am writing this off the top of my head, but I think he got out of the navy in late 1941. It is also possible that he left the Pacific in late 1941 for a stateside post. In any case, when doing the research, I remember thinking he missed Pearl Harbor by a couple of months.

[pfrost]

I also recall reading somewhere that the reference to the "honey cart" is an inside USMC joke. Best I can recall, during one of the "incidents" between the Japanese and the marines, the local honey cart (basically a guy pushed a cart around and picked up the chamber pots--which as you can imagine smelled pretty bad) got caught in the crossfire and was destroyed. Some of the marines may (or not) have been "hit by sh*t", thus the joke about bravery and valor--for a cart of crap!

P Frost

[GLM]

I also recall reading somewhere that the reference to the "honey cart" is an inside USMC joke. Best I can recall, during one of the "incidents" between the Japanese and the marines, the local honey cart (basically a guy pushed a cart around and picked up the chamber pots--which as you can imagine smelled pretty bad) got caught in the crossfire and was destroyed. Some of the marines may (or not) have been "hit by sh*t", thus the joke about bravery and valor--for a cart of crap!

P Frost

Patrick,

I'm thinking the inside joke the Marines were referring to and the "honey cart" says it all was the depiction of a man on a "$hit detail" as they probably felt they were doing protecting the International Community at Shanghai from the Japanese? Sitting at Soo Chow Creek, being plinked at day in and day out, with orders not to fire their weapons unless attack was imminent. Sounds like a "$hit detail" to me! I believe 1937 was the year Panay was sunk, wasn't it? Possible reason for the 3rd and final, more serious obverse EGA SCC Medal? Kind of like the George Medal from Guadalcanal days with a fan right behind a horse raising it's tail. And then throw a "hot potato" on the medal for good measure! A little humour speaks bunches for the Marines back then and the situations they ended up in, doesn't it?

Gary

[pfrost]

Hello Gary,

I think the reference to the honey cart was very literal in the sense that during one of incidents, some guys took cover under or near the honey cart--which was then shot up and thus the medal. I will try to find that reference and double check. Of course, I also suspect that the "sh*t detail" was also true, especially later in the 1930's.

P