Japanese Sword - Identification Please

[Quest Master]

I just obtained this sword, and am having a hard time believing what I just purchased. Looking for some information.
About two years ago, I purchased this sword:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=875910

The sword I purchased today has the exact same markings. Stu W identified the previous sword as: "Interesting piece. The fuchi markings are read other way up and from left to right indicate maker, Suya Shoten (harp looking symbol), followed by the small Tokyo First Arsenal inspection mark and last but not least the large star shaped Tokyo First Arsenal production/administration mark." and STEGEL: "You have a bit of a rare item there, there were less then 1000 of these model variations made. My records show that these range from serial number 154450 to 155550 or so. All are made by the Suya token shoten co, a subcontrator for the Tokyo Arsenal, hence the tokyo inspection stamps that you found."

This most recent sword has the same markings, but the serial number is 153595, which does not fit in the serial number range above. The entire sword has been painted silver (which I would like to remove) but I wanted to check first.

Any feedback is welcome. Thanks!

[Quest Master]

Blade serial number:

[Stu W]

Hi,

Although I commented on the previous sword it was STEGEL who made the comments regarding serial numbers. His data base is more comprehensive than mine. I'd suggest you give him a PM and ask him to comment. I believe he's updating his regularly.

Regards,
Stu

[Quest Master]

Hi,

Although I commented on the previous sword it was STEGEL who made the comments regarding serial numbers. His data base is more comprehensive than mine. I'd suggest you give him a PM and ask him to comment. I believe he's updating his regularly.

Regards,
Stu

I corrected the original posting, added him to the credit of the serial numbers and sent him a PM. Thank you!

[BruceP]

You can use acetone to remove modern paint. And it will leave any original paint still on the scabbard. Be prepared, whoever repainted it might have totally stripped the original paint. I have done two of mine, and one had original paint and the other was totally stripped. I repainted the totally stripped one myself. Now it looks too new!

[STEGEL]

Hi Van,
Just saw your PM, but i thought i'd reply here and explain my previous comments.

After re-reading my comment from 2 yrs ago, i can see that i did not fully explain 'why' it was that your first sword was 'rare', and how some confusion could have arisen from that.
The Fuchi stamps are correctly explained by STU, the sword was originally an Aluminium handle variant with the scabbard lock on the top.

All Tokyo 1st swords with aluminium Handles fall into the serial number range of approx 135k to 166k, they consist of what i call pattern 2 and 3 variants, the brass guard and the steel guards.
(If you have Dawson's as a reference, he calls them Aluminium handle variation 1 for brass guards and var 2 for the steel guards -var 2A being a seppa or spacer distinction, but ALL are found in this range)

Now the COMMON feature of all blades in this range is that they are fullered or have the blood grooves present. This being the major difference between the Aluminium handled swords and the later Wooden handled swords which, generally speaking had NO fuller present.

The serial number range i gave you 155000 - 155000 is the interesting part where 'rarity' comes into the fold. Swords found with serial numbers in this range have NO fuller - of which your first sword, posted 2 yrs ago, is a part of.

Your new purchase just posted, is the more normal configurstion which one expects to find as it has a fullered blade. Thus it is NOT as rare as your first sword

The condition of your new sword is unfortunate with the paint applied to it. Dare i say it woud have been priced accordingly, so if you want to restore it to its former glory, i would recommend getting some tips from Bruce P, as he has done an excellent job on one of his!

I hope this helps you to understand what you have now.
Cheers

[Quest Master]

Perfect reply, thank you so much for the details!!!
When I saw the markings I was like, what - another identical sword!!!!! No way!

I purchased the sword to restore it...and paid $125, so I think I did OK.

[Quest Master]

Oh, and forgot to ask, when was this one produced?

Thank you all again for the assistance!

[BruceP]

Ohmura-san states the Tokyo Arsenal's use of the star emblem began April '40, so the blade was made no earlier than that.

http://ohmura-study.net/794.html

[STEGEL]

I couldn't edit my original post, so have quoted the correct serial number range here.

The serial number range i gave you 154450 to 155550 is the interesting part where 'rarity' comes into the fold. Swords found with serial numbers in this range have NO fuller - of which your first sword, posted 2 yrs ago, is a part of.

Looking at the production figures and my initial interpretation of them, i would of thought late 1943 as the manufacture date, however, your supplied info, on the Aelutian islands, implies an earlier date of 1943. (The campaign was during may 1943 and the Japanese evacuation was at the end of July 1943)

Self Administration of the Arsenals producing swords began in Sept 42, this is when the Tokyo 1st 'star' logo began to be used and replaced the four cannon balls logo of the Kokura Arsenal. (This comes directly from the Archives via Nick Komiya)
This places your blade in the late 1942/early 1943 range

Ohmura's page is an excellent info source, however, Nick's work in the archives is the more accurate revelation in my opinion.

Looking at your photo, i noticed something interesting, there is an over-stamping of the Arsenal logos. The Tokyo 1st star is stamped over the Kokura cannon ball logo- perhaps using up the last of old stock fuchi.

Just had a possibly silly thought on the paint, can you check to get any idea on the age of the paint, i know this isn't easy without some kind of chemical analysis, however, the Aleutian campaign started out in winter, so winter camo crossed my mind. I have winter camo swords but the paint used is white - as i said...silly thought.

[BruceP]

Self Administration of the Arsenals producing swords began in Sept 42, this is when the Tokyo 1st 'star' logo began to be used and replaced the four cannon balls logo of the Kokura Arsenal. (This comes directly from the Archives via Nick Komiya)
This places your blade in the late 1942/early 1943 range

Ohmura's page is an excellent info source, however, Nick's work in the archives is the more accurate revelation in my opinion.

Looking at your photo, i noticed something interesting, there is an over-stamping of the Arsenal logos. The Tokyo 1st star is stamped over the Kokura cannon ball logo- perhaps using up the last of old stock fuchi.

I agree, Ernie, much has been learned since Ohmura's ground-breaking research, and Nick's digging is still uncovering crucial information.

I wondered why the star on this fuchi looked different than mine! Good catch on the strike-over! Wow, that seems extremely rare. Double-struck coins are worth more than normal coins, so theoritically this would add to the value of this gunto.

Cool stuff!

[Quest Master]

I absolutely love these details!!!! Thank you!
So my most recent sword, 153595, was produced in late 1942 early 1943 by Suya Token Shoten Co, a subcontrator for the Tokyo Arsenal, over-stamped the earlier Kokura Arsenal logo. Did I say that correctly (I label all of my items and want to make sure I write it correctly).

As for the silver paint, I think it is modern, done in the 60's or 70's when a kid needed grandpa's war sword in the school play or for Halloween.
Even the blade is painted.