Japanese officers sword

[dasboot2011]

Hi all,

In addition to the wazikashi, I picked this up today. Blade is perfect, but I think it may be from a NCO sword. Also I was curious about the brown saya? I’m used to black with navy or green for army. Perhaps civilian issue or marine landing? Thanks all.

[Beater]

Murata-to

That classic tang shape is associated with Murata-to. A Google should tell you what that is. They are frequently grooved too.
I've had many brown Army saya. Looks ok.

[BruceP]

This was clearly originally a privately owned blade that got donated to the war effort and re-fitted for the IJA. Nice blade! There were actually some blades made for the war with the groove, but it wasn't common.

Check Ohmura's site and you'll see quite an amazing variety of colors that were made, no doubt on custom order. http://ohmura-study.net/909.html

[BobI]

Cool but someone butchered that nakago, I have never seen the Japanese do that before. Well, actually a couple of times but not often. I guess as Bruce said, it was refitted for the current fittings. Did you get this from a woodwork source or collector source?
Bob

[nickn]

This was clearly originally a privately owned blade that got donated to the war effort and re-fitted for the IJA. Nice blade! There were actually some blades made for the war with the groove, but it wasn't common.

Check Ohmura's site and you'll see quite an amazing variety of colors that were made, no doubt on custom order. http://ohmura-study.net/909.html

Privately owned??

[Beater]

To return to my suggestion that the blade is a Murato-to, possibly originally in kyu-gunto mounts and the threaded end removed when fitted into shingunto? Here's an unaltered Murato-to nakago alongside the one in this thread? Just a suggestion - I don't know.

[gunto]

To return to my suggestion that the blade is a Murato-to, possibly originally in kyu-gunto mounts and the threaded end removed when fitted into shingunto? Here's an unaltered Murato-to nakago alongside the one in this thread? Just a suggestion - I don't know.

I was thinking the same.

[dasboot2011]

Thanks all. Murato-to does seem possible to me, glad I posted it here.

Bob this and the wazikashi were flea market pick ups.

[BruceP]

Privately owned??

"Family blade", "Civilian blade", "older blade", etc. Agree with Kevin,, though, it probably was in a kyu before it was refitted for WWII.

[BobI]

Dasboot,
Is you tang threaded? If so they did a really rough job, the other tang pictured is more what I would expect to see.
Whatever the case, as long as you bought them right I suppose it does not matter.
Thanks!
Bob

[dasboot2011]

Dasboot,
Is you tang threaded? If so they did a really rough job, the other tang pictured is more what I would expect to see.
Whatever the case, as long as you bought them right I suppose it does not matter.
Thanks!
Bob

I don’t believe there are any threads present. I will give it a close look over later to see if any remnants are present. I managed to get them for a decent orice so I’m happy with the rough wazikashi and this officer’s sword with the abused tang. Just a bummer they cut the smiths name off the wazikashi. Oh well maybe the next ones will be better.

[nickn]

I know what private purchase means
What I meant was why would it have been a private donated sword?
I thought these blade were showato so would always come in military mounts ?
It’s not an old family blade

[Beater]

I don’t believe there are any threads present. I will give it a close look over later to see if any remnants are present. Just a bummer they cut the smiths name off the wazikashi.

<a href="https://imgbb.com/"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/NSnn2cc/image.jpg" alt="image" border="0" /></a>

Absence of any remaining thread isn't a reason to discount that theory. On some given this conversion, from kyu to shingunto, they removed a significant amount of nakago. (See attached) I bought this one from BVK.

Also, I'd thoroughly enjoy that waki. If prepared to do a significant amount of research, one could possibly narrow it down to a smith or school? Probably not worth paying for a Japanese kantei but good fun to get to an informed outcome yourself.

[BruceP]

I know what private purchase means
What I meant was why would it have been a private donated sword?
I thought these blade were showato so would always come in military mounts ?
It’s not an old family blade

Sorry, Nick, I wasn't clear what I was saying - I was agreeing with Kevin, after slowing down. I had just seen the bohi and immediately assumed it an old blade.

As to "murata-to", though, looking at Ohmura's page on them, the bohi stops before the habaki, where Ohmura's example goes all the way through the nakago (http://ohmura-study.net/911.html). He called them "mass produced", so if they were mass produced, like the Type 95, wouldn't they be all be the same? He also claimed they were stamped with 2 Kanji denoting their kind. [there I go saying "always"!] The blade does look factory made, and not showato. So, if murata, there must have been variations like everything else.

[nickn]

I am sure it’s showato factory made oil quenched
Showato is Probably not the best term