Help to ID this Japanese Dirk - 1893 pattern but...

[beretta1934]

So I got this yesterday from a local estate. I picked it up and carried it around the minute I saw it because I knew it was going to be mine and wasn't taking any chances.

When I got home and took a more detailed look I realized this one had some unique things about it.

If someone has a copy of Fullers " Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks" I would appreciate knowing if this particular design is in the book and what it says about it.

The key differences are it's utter bareness of scroll lines, flowers, or any of the things typically seen on the scabbard, handles, etc. The only sakuras are the two holding on the grips and one on the butt end of the handle - some what unusual.

The scabbard metal has features which contain open views of the base material but they are all enclosed - the typical IJN officers have metal open features which flow in but are not enclosed.

No markings, letters, anchors, etc. I will NOT take off handle and risk breaking the sakura fittings

Asking for experienced collectors in this field to comment please.

[GHP]

Page 151 shows a similar saya as yours.

Fig. 32 Obverse and reverse of another early variant of the 1883 pattern Commissioned Officers naval dirk. (Imperial Japanese Daggers).

[GHP]

Page 148 shows a photo of that scabbard ... similar, I think.


Plate 208 Early, and scarce, variation of the 1883 pattern Commissioned Officers naval dirk with white same grip and shagreen scabbard. Scabbard fittings are decorated with a number of sakura (cherry blossoms) which are reminiscent of the 1873 model Commissioned Officers naval sword (see Plate 160). The open panels of the pommel and scabbard fittings are a very distinctive shape. The general impression is that this is an early version of this dirk pattern (perhaps 1883-1914 when the naval sword pattern was superseded). Other virtually identical versions are known with menuki (hilt ornament) in the form of plain discs (instead of sakura) and triple lozenge-shaped chrysanthemums. (Ron Gregory).

[drb 1643]

The blade is standard machine made with etched hamon so there's no need to disassemble the dirk and risk damaging it. The scabbard is definitely unusual. It looks a little like the earlier naval dirk scabbard but the cutouts are different and the missing motifs leads me to believe this is a version of one of the colonial dirks.
Very nice score!
Tom

[beretta1934]

Guy, thanks so much for searching for a match. I waited a while before responding in hopes someone might have one of these of information on it.

I agree the materials and the pattern look more like the early style. The lack of ornate features adds to the mystery. I reached out to Nick and will try again to see if there might be some archival IJN information/spec published in the 1883 time frame that might add some clarity.

I agree with you drb 1643 that the lack of "normal" IJN type decoration would lean one to think civilian.

[nickn]

Colonial service not civilian

[beretta1934]

Nick, my only uncertainty about colonial centers around the use of the sakura and not a colonial specific emblem on the handle? Just from what I could find the colonial dirks typically have a unique symbol. But perhaps it is a lower rank or position in a colonial administration?? Either way it is in great condition for what i think is an early piece and I am pleased to have come across it locally.

I do appreciate everyone's input and time! If anyone happens to find something in the future which ID's this closer please come back and comment to on this thread.

PS Sorry for the butter finger type "1893 pattern" in the title - we all know its 1883

[gunto]

Since it dosnt have sakura on the scabbard, I dont think its navy. But some kind of official or civil .
The most strange thing IMO is the end cap on the handle. Why isnt it the same open type ,like the the rest of the fittings?

[GHP]

Solved. See this post.


--Guy

[beretta1934]

Solved. See this post.


--Guy

+1 Thanks Guy for posting this link

Gentlemen - PLEASE FOLLOW THE LINK AND READ THE POSTING! I know you will enjoy Nick K's research to narrow this down and expand all of our knowledge of Navy Gunzoku (a civilian in navy employment) and their uniform regulations. Hopefully, this will lead to more "discoveries" of these type of daggers and more picture postings of such items. Per Nicks please expand on his post if you discover such things - either way they are now cross linked so the answer to the mystery is secured.