Translation and thoughts

[greg1878]

Hi guys, this is out of my normal collecting area, the sword was brought back to England at the end of the War.
I would appreciate any thoughts on the tang translation and if the blade can be roughly dated.
Many thanks - Greg

[greg1878]

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[GHP]

I think I saw this nakago elsewhere, but was unable to see the kanji clearly. Now, I can make out:

備州長船祐定
Bishū Osafune Sukesada

I'll leave it up to the experts to tell which generation Sukesada (link to Index of Japanese Swordsmiths), and whether or not it is gimei, etc., etc., etc.


--Guy

[greg1878]

Many thanks for the help Guy
Any thoughts men on the possible age of the blade?
Cheers - Greg

I think I saw this nakago elsewhere, but was unable to see the kanji clearly. Now, I can make out:

備州長船祐定
Bishū Osafune Sukesada

I'll leave it up to the experts to tell which generation Sukesada (link to Index of Japanese Swordsmiths), and whether or not it is gimei, etc., etc., etc.


--Guy

[Beater]

Unlikely to be Gimei with the common and generic signature. The frequently faked Sukesada's are those with specific / master swordsmith names. Sukesada blades are kind of an early production line affair with usually one head swordsmith leading the name.
The short, stubby and parallel sided tang likes like an uchigatana? What length? I'm think roughly 24/25" if an uchigata. They were popular late Koto but all just my opinion.

[Bob Coleman]

Except for the first two generations of Sukesada, blades signed with Bishu instead of Bizen are kazuchimono or massed produced blades that were signed by numerous helpers and not the smith himself. These blades are basically from the mid 16th c. After the end of civil war and power becoming under the control of Tokogawa Iyeyasu as shogun, there was no further need for production of such blades. In the sword collecting world, Sukesada in most cases considered a brand name.

[nickn]

So technicallly they are gimei

[Bob Coleman]

So technicallly they are gimei

Interesting observation Nick. I never thought of it in that manner.

[Beater]

So technicallly they are gimei

Or daisaku-mei, signed by students / workers, with the knowledge and permission of the master.

[nickn]

I think the Mei on these bundle swords are more like a marketing ploy
As bob said a trade mark
I doubt they ever went nearly a smith could sukesada let alone being made by one of his students

[Beater]

So technicallly they are gimei

I think the Mei on these bundle swords are more like a marketing ploy
As bob said a trade mark
I doubt they ever went nearly a smith could sukesada let alone being made by one of his students

I'm sure you're right. Without getting into symantics, it's just to highlight the distinction between gimei (faked and applied without consent or knowledge) and daisaku-mei, where someone else signs with consent and knowledge, even if not exactly under their watchful eye.

Sukesadas are a rather unique brand, ranging from outstanding works of art, made by the "named" masters to very utilitarian tools made by the rank and file under the Sukesada banner. The mei is often (but not always) an indicator of quality and as a rule of thumb, the more (in terms of content) the better. Those, however, are also the ones which are so often faked.

[nickn]

Probably being a bit picky but I don't think there was any one to give consent
The true sukesada of this period would not put there name to these swords