Broken Japanese sword

[Phronsias]

Hi
Forgive my ignorance, I've seen Japanese swords for sale with chopped blades. Who did this and why? Are these swords collectable? What price is such a sword in comparison to intact swords ? or are they just parts swords.
Thanks in advance
Frank

[Paul G]

Hi Frank, these are genuine swords that have been cut down. The allied occupation forces cut them down. After the surrender all weapons including swords and bayonets were required to be turned in. These items were often dumped into the sea, and other times they were cut down, or taken home by departing soldiers. The short part of the remaining sword is used to hold all the sword fittings (furniture) together. you will also see wooden blades used to hold the furniture together. People often think these are broken when in fact they are cut down. I have also seen many bayonets cut down. The cut down bayonets were often retained by the Allied troops and resharpened into utility knives for their own use. The blade now has no value, the value is all in the fittings.

PG-

[Brian Robinson]

I respectfully disagree.
Almost all of these that are seen, are modern "finds" in Japan. Arsenal machine made swords, and swords that are not registered, are illegal in Japan, and are cut like this to "deactivate them"
This still happens today when a sword comes out of the woodwork. Sometimes even better quality handmade swords are destroyed like this.
Appears there is a procedure to attempt to register a newly found sword, but most owners and dealers couldn't be bothered or are ignorant of the process, and the blade is destroyed.
As sais, the blade is worth nothing, all that is left is the value of the fittings.

Brian

[Phronsias]

Hi Paul
Thank you for your reply, I've seen one particular cut sword on a dealers site that must have been very beautiful in its day.
Thanks again
Frank

[Paul G]

I respectfully disagree.
Almost all of these that are seen, are modern "finds" in Japan. Arsenal machine made swords, and swords that are not registered, are illegal in Japan, and are cut like this to "deactivate them"
This still happens today when a sword comes out of the woodwork. Sometimes even better quality handmade swords are destroyed like this.
Appears there is a procedure to attempt to register a newly found sword, but most owners and dealers couldn't be bothered or are ignorant of the process, and the blade is destroyed.
As sais, the blade is worth nothing, all that is left is the value of the fittings.

Brian

You are right Brian, this is most likely a modern de-mil. I guess when I replied I was thinking in terms of WW2 time period. I had a nice conversation with a WW2 Navy Veteran who told me they would do this to swords and bayonets at the end of the war, and after, as all weapons were required to be turned in. He showed me a couple of cut bayonets and swords that he brought home, with intentions of making them into souvenir utility type knives, for his own use, mainly as a conversation piece. He said a lot of guys were making them. His were never completed. So, in a broader sense, more likely a later cut down as you suggest.

PG-

[Franco]

Hi,
This serves as a warning to anyone thinking of sending their gendaito to Japan
for a polish.

[GHP]

Hi,
This serves as a warning to anyone thinking of sending their gendaito to Japan
for a polish.

Maybe, but not necessarily -- when a sword arrives with no tourokushou [registration license] it can be returned if you are not a Japan resident. I took my IJN stainless sword over and was given a written order by the Airport Police to take the blade to the local shinsa run at a high school. After they saw the circle-anchor they would not register the sword. I had to have the sword impounded by the local police and it was returned to me at the airport on my return -- after I cleared the security check (this was 1984!). Maybe my case was different because my sponsor was known in the community.???

I asked the police if I could have mailed the sword directly to the polisher, but was told that if I had tried to mail the sword, it would not have made it past customs and would be returned to me by post.

Of course, that was --- OMG! --- 30 years ago. Things might have changed for the worse now.


--Guy

[Bob Coleman]

I agree with Guy. I have sent several gendaito to Japan for polish and have never had a problem. It is best to send it through an agent who knows how to handle such matters. The police are not sword experts and therefore, question everything. Many years ago when flying out of Narita back to the states, I was carrying two shinto that had been sent for polish and shinsa. The policeman checking the taxi wanted me to take the blades out of the shirasaya in the rain! I demanded to see his superior and that was the end to the problem. I have heard that the original owner was allowed by special permit to keep a non traditional military blade. My brother-in-law attempted to give me a machine made blade in military mounts. I had no idea how to get it out of Japan so I had to decline.

[Death-Ace]

I haven't heard of any issues for traditionally made gendaito like Guy has stated. Blades made by Smith's such as Gassan, Yasunori, Nagamitsu, Rikugun smiths in general go to polishers and shinsa in Japan with no problems. However, non-traditional ones are definitely the issue. However, some well made showato manage to make their way though and even go to Shinsa (albeit with stamps removed). I heard that parade sabers, however, are allowed to be kept at length due to use in post-war parades? Also, I read that some modern foreign blades like rapiers would be cut as well if transferred to Japan. Not sure how often this happens.

Happy Hunting!
Lev

[bangbangsan]

Most of the cut down sowrd &bayonet were done by allied after Japan surrender.I think the Japnese police will cut down the counfiscate sword as well,but not 100% for sure.
The sword need to vetted by 日本美術刀劍保存協會(NBTHK)or local 教育委員會 (Education Commission ),None traditioanl made sword can't get registration license(銃砲刀剣類所持許可証（登録証），and it's illegal to own.
But even the 日本美術刀劍保存協會 (NBTHK) illegally possessing hundreds unregistered samurai swords...
Check this out
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/201.../#.VRblpfRAWOo

[Phronsias]

Hi
Again forgive my ignorance, what is a "None traditional made sword" and what is a traditional made sword?
Thanks
Frank

[bangbangsan]

Hi
Again forgive my ignorance, what is a "None traditional made sword" and what is a traditional made sword?
Thanks
Frank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_4zHNcieM

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/swor-nf.html

[Phronsias]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_4zHNcieM

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/swor-nf.html

Hi and thanks
So how is a none traditional made sword made?
Regards
frank

[bangbangsan]

Hi and thanks
So how is a none traditional made sword made?
Regards
frank

Mostly machine made,like all NCO sword.Or half machine half traditional.

[bangbangsan]

Hi and thanks
So how is a none traditional made sword made?
Regards
frank

"gunto" is used to refer to mass produced, mostly machine made or assembly line production, blades of the WW II era. It is a term of derision. "Gunto" are thought of as low class, poorly made swords having no artist value and of interest only as war relics. Even in Japan, this term is used to describe swords of no value. According to current Japanese regulations, "gunto" are not allowed to be imported into the country either for sale or restoration.

"Showato" is used by collectors to also refer to non-traditionally made swords of the Showa Era. It also implies a lower grade of blade not usually of interest to Nihonto collectors.
http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/military.htm

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/military.htm