Flags on estand

[Papa Nambu]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=660214

I think the regulars can spot the problem here right away, but just as a warning to the newer collectors, that "signed flag" is not right. Although the flag itself is probably pre-45, the writing is copied from a real yosegaki flag and added by a non-Japanese literate person. At best a wartime "enhanced" flag, more likely a "House of Swords" fake from the 90s.

The second flag I have doubts about even being pre-45.

[afrikasandman]

Guys,

Please enlighten me on these. I bought them years ago and the larger one came from Craig gottlieb off of eBay years ago as well. If they are bad no biggie and ill just cut them up or burn them. This is why I don't collect this stuff anymore. But let's have a discussion about why they are good or bad. Matt

[GHP]

Matt,

I studied Japanese language for two intensive years and lived in Japan for five years; I've been involved deeply in the Japanese culture.

I will, without reservation, confirm Papa Nambu's analysis that the Japanese characters are NOT drawn by anyone familiar with the technicalities of Japanese/Chinese lettering (brush stroke order, balance, etc.).

I've met a few non-Asians who can write Japanese and fool the Japanese. (One is a friend who has a master's license in calligraphy and he regularly competes -- and wins -- in Japan).

Whoever messed with these flags is NOT someone familiar with Japanese.

And ... it looks like he used a magic marker. Definitely NOT a Japanese/Chinese writing brush and ink.

Sorry.

--Guy Power

[afrikasandman]

Guy,

Thank you for your analysis. No hard feelings on my end and if they are bad it's better to find out now. So we know the writing is crap but what about the flags themselves? Any hope or should I just burn them and be done with them. Rather not see anyone else get shafted. At least I'm not out a ton of money. Matt

[GHP]

...the writing is crap but what about the flags themselves? ...

Again, I defer to Papa Nambu:

...Although the flag itself is probably pre-45,...

--Guy

[Papa Nambu]

Don't feel too bad, Afrikasandman, lots of people don't know what to look for on these flags or many Japanese militaria items until they've done the research. I bought a really bad fake-writing flag back before I knew any better, and I've had German items that the German collectors here would have laughed at. In any case, I was not implying that you knew the flag was bad and were out to rip anyone off. People come to this board to ask about flags like that fairly often.

The points about the writing have already been made. On the second flag I feel it may be post war because that type of corner tie is more common on post-war flags (but not unheard of on war-time flags) and more importantly because the writing goes left to right on the manufacture's name. Before 1947 Japanese was usually written right to left. It is probably still an antique Japanese flag, I just wouldn't call it a WW2 collectable.

The last flag could very well be pre or post-45, there's nothing very distinctive in the photo for me to say.

[afrikasandman]

Papa nambu,

I appreciate you starting the thread. I am certainly not out to screw anyone over and this has been a good learning thread for me. Is there any pic I can take that would confirm it one way or another on these flags? Also if the larger one is a period flag with bad writing what is a fair price on a ruined flag? Damn shame to see people wreck original items to make a little bit more money. It happens all the time with German stuff and ill certainly stick to my area and not venture into the Japanese territory again. Thank you al for the information thus far and please let me know what I need to take for pics to determine the originality of the flags. Matt

[Bob Chatt]

One thing to add is just because it was done in a non-Asian hand, doesn't mean it is not vintage. It could have been made by Seabees or other front line units and then sold or traded to rear echelon guys as souvenirs (same as parts German daggers at the end of the war).
Do these make them fake or not vintage? No, they are just not-original Japanese carried pieces.

[afrikasandman]

Bob,

its entirely possible but I don't know how to differentiate those from the utter crap. Japanese is not my thing and im just clearing the last of my Japanese stuff out. I really only collect PzGrn items and some Heer tropical militaria. I have a couple of Japanese bayonets left that I bought as a kid but thats it and im just looking to move the stuff out. I don't want to get hosed on the value but I want to be at a fair price from collectors to collectors but I don't even know if these are legit at this point. I had believed them to be originals but obviously that seems to be incorrect. Matt

[Papa Nambu]

For the signed flag, you can look carefully at the writing and see if it looks to you like it was done with a Sharpie or felt marker. The dirt on that one looks like the sort of artificial "wear and tear" typical of the "House of Swords" fakes, so I personally don't think there's much of a chance of the writing being pre-45 even as a "Seabee special". It's a shame because by the looks of it I think the flag itself was fine before someone messed with it. Even when legit, unsigned, plain Japanese flags have never brought very high prices, the design hasn't changed like with German flags.

Nothing else to add about the second, still worth a few bucks as an antique IMO.

After looking it over I really don't have any problem with the third flag. On a larger flag, those type of simple ties sewn into the bunting wouldn't be typical for pre-45 flags, but for a small "parade flag" it's not uncommon. It would be hard to prove when it was made one way or another, since there's just not much too them.

[gunto]

For being antique it has to be over 100 years old.

[Marcel Banziger]

For being antique it has to be over 100 years old.

Keep them for another 30 years and they will become antiques

[afrikasandman]

So consensus stands that the large flag was legit and is now pretty much screwed now because some wrote all over it. The second one is post war and the 3rd is probably ok but parade use.... well then what to do with them? If anyone is interested in them please shoot me a PM as they are not right and I don't want to list them again on the estand since they are messed with an untouched or I'll just burn all of them and we can be done with the whole mess (except the 3rd since its original and unmessed with) Matt

[Dennis J]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=660214

I think the regulars can spot the problem here right away, but just as a warning to the newer collectors, that "signed flag" is not right. Although the flag itself is probably pre-45, the writing is copied from a real yosegaki flag and added by a non-Japanese literate person. At best a wartime "enhanced" flag, more likely a "House of Swords" fake from the 90s.

The second flag I have doubts about even being pre-45.

I knew the people that owned and worked at the house of swords and I can tell you that is one of their flags.They had so much played with and fake items mixed in with good items that they would put out a big pictured cataloge every 6 months or so with all this crap in it.The owner who was a real trip was murdered in his house a few years back.They owed me so much money at one time that I had to go have a talk with them..........they gave me back my money and sold me 4 real nice Japanese helmets for around $300 ea.I never talked to them again.

Dennis J

[Papa Nambu]

For being antique it has to be over 100 years old.

There are a lot of things in antique shops that are not antiques by that definition. OK, "vintage" then.