Shin Gunto Identification

[Tom McRei]

Hello, I would like to ask experts about this sword, is it a genuine Japanese Shin Gunto sword or fake.
There is no signature on the handle.

[gunto]

Original.

[Stu W]

Original.

I agree.

Regards,
Stu

[Tom McRei]

Can anyone date the blade? How old could be the sword, is it a ww2 machine made sword or prewar one fitted to Shing Gunto standard during 1935-1945?

[GHP]

I am NOT an appraiser and have no training in kantei (grading). With that caveat out of the way I would say that the sword wold have been made between 1930 - 1945. I base my conclusion on the condition of the nakago (tang), that it is not discolored/rusted. Rust is desirable on Japanese swords, so never oil the tang; the rust will strengthen the tang.

Regards,
--Guy Power

[Stu W]

Odds are that it's no earlier than the early 1930s. Having said that I'd suggest getting Budo45 or Bob Coleman to comment further in that regard.

Now, as to oiling the nakago (tang), I take a different view but hasten to add that there are two distinct schools of thought. Although I agree that one does not remove stabilized old rust there are cases where fresh active red rust must be treated. In addition, if a nakago is relatively new and without any rust the application of oil will keep it that way.

I would suggest that after applying a light coat of an appropriate type of oil to a nakago you never wipe the excess toward the polished portion of the blade. Instead, wipe it toward the nakago jiri so as to eliminate any chance of carrying contaminants onto the blade itself. As to the amount, I'd suggest placing a single drop on each thumb and then work it along the nakago.

Just to be clear, I'm suggesting the thumb method for the nakago only, not the blade itself.

Regards,
Stu

[GHP]

...
Now, as to oiling the nakago (tang), I take a different view but hasten to add that there are two distinct schools of thought. Although I agree that one does not remove stabilized old rust there are cases where fresh active red rust must be treated. In addition, if a nakago is relatively new and without any rust the application of oil will keep it that way.

I will agree with you regarding the active red rust ... active rust is bad. I was taught to remove active rust by gently rubbing it off using a penny; a copper penny is softer than steel and will not damage the blade or nakago.

With that said, I would still recommend not oiling the tang of this sword. Although chances are it is guntou and would never pass an inspection in Japan (and it would be confiscated .... yes, I have a story about that!), it still should be allowed to age naturally. 200 years from now someone might possess this sword and by then it would have a nice layer of desirable black rust; and based on the rust, an expert might say, "Hmmm ... this is circa 1930~1945 and you can tell it's 200 years old by the level of the rust."

But then again, that is only my opinion.

Regards,
--Guy

[GHP]

If you oil your blade .....

Please use choji (clove) oil. You can find it in almost any martial arts catalogue (example).

An aside:

A small bottle of choji oil will last a long time. As a practitioner of Japanese swordsmanship for over thirty years, it is my experience that after test-cutting damp straw mats and bamboo, you can use a non-abrasive cleaner (Pikal) on MODERN martial-art-grade swords because the blades will not have a high-grade polish -- nothing to worry about. [And, you can use these products even if you don't use your swords.]

Just a wee bit of choji ... a slightly moist felt or cotton swab is sufficient, wipe off any excess oil with a tissue. Again, we're talking about practical swords, not national treasures.

--Guy

[gunto]

I will agree with you regarding the active red rust ... active rust is bad. I was taught to remove active rust by gently rubbing it off using a penny; a copper penny is softer than steel and will not damage the blade or nakago.

With that said, I would still recommend not oiling the tang of this sword. Although chances are it is guntou and would never pass an inspection in Japan (and it would be confiscated .... yes, I have a story about that!), it still should be allowed to age naturally. 200 years from now someone might possess this sword and by then it would have a nice layer of desirable black rust; and based on the rust, an expert might say, "Hmmm ... this is circa 1930~1945 and you can tell it's 200 years old by the level of the rust."

But then again, that is only my opinion.

Regards,
--Guy

Never use anything than a bone to remove rust.

[Stu W]

Please use choji (clove) oil.--Guy

Hi Guy,

Looks like we have some philosophical differences in our approaches to sword care. No worries though, as I mentioned there are two schools of thought on the subject.

I agree that if choji is available you'd want to use it but sewing machine oil will work as well. Last but not least, you've put clove oil in brackets and I read that to mean it's an equivalent of choji. My understanding is that it's not. Choji oil has a few drops of clove in it for aroma. Pure clove oil will stain a blade according to my research.

Something for readers to research for themselves before using pure clove.

Regards,
Stu

[GHP]

Hi Stu,

you've put clove oil in brackets and I read that to mean it's an equivalent of choji.

Yes, I meant choji abura 丁子油 and only bracketed the translated word; I did not mean to imply pure clove oil. Thanks for clearing that up.

--Guy

[GHP]

Never use anything than a bone to remove rust.

Gunto, I've never heard that before -- thanks for the tip.

--Guy

[gunto]

Bone/horn/ivory with oil will remove NEW rust from nakago.