Samurai Sword Questions

[BryanD]

Petrolium products are not good for blades. It will add to the gray stain. Clove oil is best on blades. The easeist way to tell if the blade is military production rather than an old blade is to look at the sharp side of the blade, military blades go flat about 1/2 inch from the brass piece before the handguard.

[juoneen]

The flat at the area he said ,will make it a showa, and might be a 30s blade. The bob benson idea, (bushido) might cost more than its worth as it used to be 25.00 per sq" in japan, now most likely 10x that ammount, and it may best be left as found. Honest combat wear, and after the battle provenance , make it a facinating piece, so if you want to have a shiny samurai, keep looking for another , and just leave it as found. If you want to use oil, only use clove oil, (check the pharmacys near you)and after wiping it down with only a cotton cloth, they have a tom tom looking talc powder drumstick they beat against the blade all the way down, and on both sides , and wich leaves a dusty coating then wiped again to remove excess oil. . Hes correct , any 3 in one or even light sewing machine oil will stain or darken the blade. Get advice seriously before proceeding by someone in the business like bob in hawaii , but im sure his polishing may be different from having a true japanese sword maker repolish it. Id get like in a medical evaluation, several opinions before id committ to wasting the money. But its a nice sword, and contains the spirit of the soldier who owned it, or so they say. I like it as is, and who knows if it has stock , or different manukis under the wrap added. the piece he spoke of thats in front of the tsuba(guard,or hilt, is called the habaki. I also wouldnt attempt to remove the handle until someone can show you the correct safe procedure, as even though these may not look too sharp, can still sever all the tendons and such in your hand if you try to pull the blade out of the handle with your hand. Dont forget you will have to damage the cover on the handle to get the bamboo pin holding the blade in the handle out, as i know someone who had to have 3 serious hand surgerys to get only partial use of his hand back for messing with one with no proper education. Its better to look at it, until you can get instructions on how its supposed to be done. By the way there are still several national treasure swords out there somewhere , that have to this day never been found. I knew a man who had one he sold to the japanese govt in 1958, for 67,000, and a round trip all expenses paid to japan for a week.(charlie Vogt) Think of what it would be worth today. Possibly in the millions at todays dollar devaluated today because of inflation is only worth .04 in buying power.(see aaron Russos documentary"american freedom to faschism"documentary directors cut free online )Nice item, you should get him on video if he is still alive, to tell the tale of how and where he got it . That will add much to the value by itself. Its very nice. Thanks for showing it .

[Budo45]

clove oil

only use clove oil, (check the pharmacy's near you) do not use this oil, its for teeth only!!! the last post is full of half truths and misconceptions.

the oil we use is a mineral oil with a small amount of clove oil called choji oil. Pharmacy's oil will give the blade a slight purple tent and stain the blade. I have assisted with the cleaning and id of blades with the curator at the Gold Star museum at Camp Dodge and at the Iowa historical museum. you don't need to take my word ask here.
http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/index...463fa8ff64e93b

Read here
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

top prices of swords in Japan are not in the millions. the flat dull edge just before the habaki is called ubu, means the sword was only polished once.
truth is its may not be worth the cost of restoration. truth is you need to remove the cosmo as any rust that may have started under it needs to be taken care of, that also goes for under the habaki.

Id post on the NMB if you want the rightful answers about the sword. If you'd like any assistance with your sword fell free to Email me at H2obro1 @ alo.com

[Steve Flanagan]

Oil for swords

For clarification Choji oil is high grade mineral oil which is petroleum based with clove added for the pleasing scent. As Budo45 said this is what is traditionally used, not the toothache remedy from the pharmacy which would be a disaster.
My best U.S.A. based polisher charges me $85 an inch and thats if there are no grooves or problem areas requiring extra work The cost of a Japanese polish is considerably higher. This is why finding out more on the age and maker of the blade pretty much determines if its worth the cost of restoration to original polish.

[Brian Robinson]

What Stephen and Steve said...
Light machine oil is fine, after removing any cosmolene. Choji oil (clove oil) is only called that for convenience. In Japan, it is just light machine oil with a few drops of clove oil purely for scent. Just keep it lightly oiled and you will prevent any further damage.
Whether to polish or not is going to depend largely on what kind of blade you have there, and the only way to know for sure is to remove the tsuka (handle)
I know this is a tough call, but that cover is a field expedient and I would rather know what the blade is than keep it on.
It's a tough one between militaria value and Japanse sword convention.
As Stephen suggested, I would first see if the sarute (back ring for tassel) can be removed and the cover removed. This might allow the cover to be slipped off and the tsuka taken off. All swords were meant to be dismantled regularly for maintenance, and I am sure this soldier would have left a way for it to be done.

Also, as mentioned, ubu-ha (that unsharpened bit in front of the habaki) tells nothing. Most swords have it originally, and as they are polished later in life, it disappears. The presence of it or not tells nothing about whether the blade is hand forged or an arsenal blade.

In all likelyhood, this is maybe just an arsenal blade, but you do need to see for sure, and maybe know who signed it. The idea that a sword could be worth milliions is just a pipe dream. Even the top swords in Japan nowdays are worth in the hundreds of thousands, and the chances of it being anywhere near that are next to impossible. But a good Gendaito, hand forged, could be a few $1000, or an older blade more.

Bob's polish is as good as a Japanese one, since he is probably the most highly qualified and Japanese-trained togishi in the West. As said, likely this sword doesn't warrant a polish by him, but you should have it cleaned a bit to see what the blade is like and then you can know for sure.

The sarute passes through a hollow rod/collar that is screwed together. See if you can turn and unscrew them (where the loop goes into the bottom of the handle)
If you can unscrew them, then you can remove the sarute easier and see if you can remove the cover. Otherwise, wipe the blade with oil after removing the cosmolene and see if you can see if there are signs of hand forging. Any active grain or crystal particles in the steel? Purchase a good cleaning kit with the uchiko ball and lightly clean over a period of a few months..this will allow you to see the blade better. Instructions online or from the links provided.

Goo luck with it, and do lots of reading up on them. There are excellent links provided by Stephen that will assist with anything you need to know.

Regards,
Brian

[GoForBroke]

Nice battlefield pickup! From a collector standpoint, based on what I can see in the pictures, I'd just leave it alone at least for a month or two unless you absolutely need to turn it around and recoup your money. When I run across items of this kind, I usually approach it this way. That way you don't rush and risk disturbing details from both a militaria and sword collecting perspective - something you really want to consider right now in regards to future value and appeal of this item - given the way the market for swords and militaria has changed in the past 10 years. I'd try to get additional background info on this too - names, dates, locations. Also, sometimes a piece with character grows on you. In no way is this a junky piece and although there's obvious age and some neglect, it's in very nice combat used condition. Heavy cleaning and spending money on restorations on a piece like this shouldn't be a priority in MHO. You've rescued it already and further deterioration will slow now. You have time to think it over and research ,etc as mentioned previously. A piece like this will always show signs of use unless you funnel 3-4x your principle into restoring it and/or replacing furniture/fittings and there are plenty of competent guys out there who will take your money and do a fine job of this. It has nice character and great battle damage on the furniture that should be left and appreciated. I've seen the furniture of many nice, relatively unmessed with swords taken apart and ruined for nothing. I've handled a lot of swords like this and most of the time there's nothing under that handle that really means much and hasn't already been seen. Mostly these are arsensal blades. Once in a great while there's a Yasukuni, sometimes a Gendaito made before or during the war, or something older but again, I don't see that right now. You've got a really nice field made cover over that handle. That's unique. Although these are floating around and sword collectors have loose ones in their part's boxes, it is very nice to see one that has a high probability of being original to the sword. I don't see many like that and if possible, try not to disturb it. Proper cleaning of the blade would be a benefit and maybe all you need to do. Definitely research the proper cleaning and preservation of the exposed blade but take your time and be patient. Soften up the dried grease. Often this involves soaking it and letting it sit for days. I've let something sit for weeks before it broke down and could be easily removed. When it's in a goo state and nearly dissolved then gently wipe it off, turning the cotton cloth with each pass over the blade to minimize introducing any new scratches (there's grit and dirt in that dried matter) - like detailing a car. Remember, be conservative and don't hurry. There are Japanese sword collectors who take a conservative approach and can give you an excellent idea if you have something old there without taking anything apart. Unfortunately, it would really help to be examined in hand. Unless there is strong indications of something of value or something old, I'd refrain from taking it apart for now! If you need additional assistance feel free to email me. Good luck! GFB

[The Professor]

Thanks to all who responded.
I appreciate the kind comments and all the information that each of you have provided very much.
I will not endeavor to make additional discoveries as to the blade.
The sword of course holds the information as to its origin and I will allow the blade to keep its own secret.
The attraction for me is that it is an honest combat used item with GI provenance and has information as to the the location of recovery. I will let it hold its place in history as is.
I will spend time researching the sites recomended looking for the proper method to prevent blade deterioriation but will leave the tang and other components undisturbed.
You have all stated that the tassel was probably added by the GI. If that is the case and SGT. Cook saw fit to put it there then I will leave it as well.
I was surprised at the level and length of comment on this peice and would like to thank you all very much for your time, interest, and information.
My best regards to each of you.
TP

[Budo45]

sword care

http://www.ncjsc.org/
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/care.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/care/handling.htm
http://everything2.com/e2node/Caring...nese%2520sword

Well now you have decided to care for the sword here are some links to help you down the path.
The first link is from NCJSC, in your area. Maybe take in one of the meetings?
Japanese sword care has been around for centuries, old swords have been passed down from one custodian to another, that's why we
see important works left today in Japan and with many collectors in the USA.

Its good that your going to honor your blade, it is now in your charge you have became custodian for its next x amount of years.
As we all know one never reblues a old gun, or remove a dark patina from a old piece of furniture, with Japanese sword collectors its is different, perseveration of the blade is paramount, No collector I know worth his salt would leave the blade as it is now, the dark spots are rust most likely from human finger prints. So after you study maybe take it to the NCJSC meeting and see what they say. If you clean the gunk off the blade you may find great work of the gendai era or even shinshinto, (it does not look older) or just a piece of bar stock from the war.
I reintegrate that proper cleaning requires a dismantle as Brian stated and were made to do such. For now a denatured alcohol or Opps as I have used will remove the cosmoline.
Once you have educated your self more into the world of Nihonto you'll have a better idea if you want to remove the weather cover to see if its signed.
Good luck with your new adventure, may it be rewarding and enlightening

[BryanD]

For clarification Choji oil is high grade mineral oil which is petroleum based with clove added for the pleasing scent. As Budo45 said this is what is traditionally used, not the toothache remedy from the pharmacy which would be a disaster.
My best U.S.A. based polisher charges me $85 an inch and thats if there are no grooves or problem areas requiring extra work The cost of a Japanese polish is considerably higher. This is why finding out more on the age and maker of the blade pretty much determines if its worth the cost of restoration to original polish.

Just wondering.
What did the Japanese use for the first 800 years of samurai sword production before petrolium products were available ?

[Budo45]

oil used

Bryan

I asked on the NMB and ill post if diff, i found this in a search.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/J02.167.htm