"Japanese Flag"..........NOT!!

[Ron C.]

I picked this up a great number of years ago from a vet. I got it home and showed it to my father. He started laughing. He asked where I got it, and then said that I had not acquired a real Japanese flag! Then he told me the story. Dad was a Seabee in WW2, and those who know Seabees know they are "improvisers". Dad said this was without a doubt a Seabee made Japanese flag, they lived on the land in the Pacific with the Marines. Dad said they got hold of parachute silk; took it to their shop on Guam and etc.; cut it into flag size pieces; made a stencil; laid out the pieces on the workbench area; mixed up a solution of red "dye" using highly thinned red paint with some other stuff in it as well, placed the stencil and sprayed "Japanese" flags. They then took these to the regular Navy guys who would come into the dock areas from time to time (and never really got off to get souveniers) and traded the flags to them for fresh fruit and ice cream. They then took part of that to the Marines, who they also got along with very well, and gave it to them. Out of gratitude, the Marines would give the Seabees Japanese helmets, rifles, and other things......which they would again take to the regular Navy guys and deal to them for more goodies etc.........which they again would share with the Marines.......making a continuing circle of commerce. My father could not of course tell for sure if it was one he had helped make, but he said it was exactly like them and he was absolutely certain of what it was. Instead of being upset by what he told me, it has had a special place in my stuff since that time, and I will never forget the kick my father got when he first saw it. He of course is gone now, but every time I see it I remember him and the smile when he saw it. He did say however that it wasn't as good as the ones his guys had done, because this one had the red "dye" smeared in a few places.

Thought maybe you might like to see it too, but it is a little hard to photograph.

Ron

[Edokko]

That's a real interesting story from your dad. Heck of a group of entrepreneurs, those Seabees !!
I've heard of stories where Seabees would cut out the squares from parachutes and spread it over red painted flat bucket bottoms, and then ink in a few "look alike" kanji characters and sell the freshly made "Yosegaki flags" to non-combat soldiers or flyers. I get a real kick out of these stories, and whenever I see one that does indeed look like a bucket bottom impressed red ball and a few nonsense Kanjis, I can't help but think of the rare humor of such history items.

[Mike Dalton]

Parachute silk,huh? While the story is cute, I would sure have this flag checked out before dismissing it as a concocted phoney. SeaBees were certainely skilled but, flag sewing and silk dyeing probably wern't their strongpoints.

[MikeB]

Japanese Flag.......

Hi Mike-
I would have to disagree with you. Jerry Price wrote a very good article that covered this subject in Banzai magazine a few years back. You may be able to find it by doing a Google search. If not, the subject will be covered in my book due out by Schiffer Books in '08. The SeaBees in fact have been given the rather (in)famous title of the War's best fakers of "authentic" signed Japanese flags. The details are lengthy, but the SeaBees did use utility buckets to fashion signed flags from cotton, silk and any other material they could find. They often copied original ideograms for their fakes, took characters off of old Japanese labels, or simply made up characters that looked "Japanese." One man in the article said that his father used to help make the fake flags on the island that he served on and they were quite good (even though the paint was often still wet while money was being exchanged!) As for the rayed flag listed here, I cannot tell if it is vintage from the photos shown. SeaBees tended to make signed flags and I have no reference on the rayed variety. Hope this helps... Mike

[Edokko]

Yes, I've also heard about sightings of large scale "bucket operations" in Okinawa, where the unit buckets have all mysteriously dissapeared or commandeered by a mean looing Seabee, and there would be dozens and dozens of new flags hung out to dry from a nearby building window.

[Ron C.]

Parachute silk,huh? While the story is cute, I would sure have this flag checked out before dismissing it as a concocted phoney. SeaBees were certainely skilled but, flag sewing and silk dyeing probably wern't their strongpoints.

Mike,

I am not not sure if I correctly understand your reply. I am not sure what you mean by cute story. It is a true story told by my father to me about some of his wartime experiences. I totally believe what my father told me, and have no need to check it out further. I have compared it to many other flags believed by many others to be original Japanese made ones.....and it falls far short of them. The workmanship is also far below the quality of workmanship put into the repro ones that came from Delta International, and other such concerns, many years ago. There is no chance that it is a real Japanese made flag, and, frankly, I personally value it much more than the ordinary "real" Japanese flag. I would be really disappointed if it were a "real" one, since I like it for what it is. I don't look at it as a "concocted phoney", but rather as an original "Seabee production" . It is not a recent find, but actually one I acquired close to 50 years ago.

I agree with you that Seabees were very skilled. Many of them were like my father......farm boys, working with machinery for many years, and having to "make do" with what they had, and learning to do their own repairs with parts they sometimes had to make themselves, and most of all improvising; mechanics; truck drivers; and equipment operators...my father in fact was all of these in one, and had been working for a living since age 15. He was 26 when he went into the Seabees, he also was married and had one child...me. Many other of the Seabees he knew and served with had similar backgrounds......especially those who entered with him from his home area. He, and all the others, had a true "Can Do" attitude, so they were naturals for the Seabees.

You are also correct that silk dyeing and flag sewing were not their strongest talents however, as can clearly be seen with this flag. The rising sun, or rayed, flag was not their best work.......at least this one wasn't, which is likely why the most they did were the so-called "meatball" ones. The rays, which had to be stenciled instead of using the bucket, presented too much of a chance for errors by smearing and bleeding, as can be seen better in the pictures to follow. Also the sewing machine and "seamstress" didn't function very well....notice the loose stitching, the uneven seams run on the edges, and the fact that they didn't turn the seams under, but left an exposed "raw" edge. The mixture of paint, thinner, and whatever they used for their dye leached or bled under the edges of the stencil as seen in the slightly faded and uneven looking edges of the red, and the red smeared.....I suppose when they tried to remove the stencil. Some of those on this flag can be seen in the following photos.

Also, I tried to show the uneveness in the color saturation of the red "dye"; however, it didn't show really well in the photos. If you look closely at the photos, however, you still can make it out to a degree.

Thanks,
Ron

[Ron C.]

My Dad's Navy knife

This is another example of Seabee work. This is my father's Navy knife that he carried in the pacific. He did the leather braiding on the sheath, and he made the handle (modifying his issue knife) in the Seabee shop area.

Ron

[Mike Dalton]

Hi Ron, and all, I didn't mean to come off sounding like a smart ass but, I sometimes do. They did a pretty convincing job on that flag and I'm sure it would have fooled me if I saw it at a show or flea market. I have seen others of various quality of construction and printing. Some better than others and with some 'bleeding' of the dye. That is an awesome looking knife by the way. Best regards to you and your dad. Mike

[Ron C.]

Hi Ron, and all, I didn't mean to come off sounding like a smart ass but, I sometimes do. They did a pretty convincing job on that flag and I'm sure it would have fooled me if I saw it at a show or flea market. I have seen others of various quality of construction and printing. Some better than others and with some 'bleeding' of the dye. That is an awesome looking knife by the way. Best regards to you and your dad. Mike

Mike,

I didn't take your reply to be a "smart ass" one; however, I have that very problem myself.....especially when people hear me talk.......my voice sounds that way I guess, and that, combined with my direct manner of talk, has often caused people to think that I am mad, mean, and a "real" smart ass. Actually, I think of myself as a big ole teddy bear ....but a lot don't. Thanks for the regards, and I sure wish I could convey them to my father; however he died young for his family several years back......at age 83.

Thanks,
Ron

[John Egger]

The "CB's" did make alot of stuff but they didn't have the corner on the market on war souveniers. My late friend, Shelton Yokomizo started collecting souveniers as a child after his family was released from one of the camps for Americans of Japanese desent. One day he purchased a regular Japanese "meatball" flag with kanji on it from a second hand shop in Oakland, CA. He ran home to have his dad translate the writing on his new treasure. When his dad read the flag he began to laugh and explained that the kanji read "Sold to a stupid American". The flag was real enough and vintage so we assumed it was sold as a souvenier to an American serviceman during the occupation.

[GIZMO8Z]

Sorry to bring back an old thread... but here is another SeeBee special!

[Box_Rebellion]

I love how guys were collecting even DURING the war... great thread!

[GIZMO8Z]

I love how guys were collecting even DURING the war... great thread!

Pretty neat, isn't it?

It certainly makes a lot of sense to me! Most soldiers were in their late teens... what we consider today as still kids! Of course they'd be eager to bring back a few souvenirs from the biggest adventure of their lives!!