Japanese collar tabs

[RodneyO]

Aloha All, and a Mele Kalikimaka!!!
I was wondering how collar insignias are sewn on. I’ve seen collar tabs with one tab sewn upside down on uniforms. Were uniforms issued without collar insignias and that the individual soldier having to sew them on themselves? I’ve even seen officer’s tunic with one tab sewn upside down. Would this pass their strict inspections, knowing how enlisted men were beaten by their nco and officers for infraction during training? I’ve seen uniforms, both enlisted and officers with this done and always stayed away from them thinking they must be post war applied, no Japanese soldier would sew on their collar tabs this way. Should this be something to worry about when purchasing a Japanese tunic with collar tabs like this sewn on?
Mahalo,
Rodney

[John Egger]

Rank Insignia....

Good Morning Rodney,
First we need to clarify if we are discussing army or navy. For the army, pocket patches & how insignia was worn seems to have changed after they switched from the shoulder worn rank insignia of the model 30 uniform to the smaller collar insignia. Uniforms were issued without insignia. In general, after the surrender insignia of all kind was stripped from the uniform so getting a uniform with original insignia is sometimes difficult (this has been pointed out by others in this thread) In combat areas the wearing of insignia was different then in rear (non combat ) areas. The Japanese were security conscience and as so would remove rank and or anything that might give away any intelligence to the enemy. So insignia was placed on the uniform in a way that made it easy to remove and replace.

There is now the question.....Where and How was insignia worn.

WHERE; The location insignia was placed sometimes depended upon an unit, that is to say, while placing a rank patch on a particular part of the uniform, such as over the shirt pocket was exceptable and clearly done there were a number of exceptions. Rank tabs sewn to the side of combat caps or attached on the chin strap of the cap. Sewn on the sleeve and sometimes different sleeves or over the pocket. This seemed to apply to both services and is pointed out in period photos.

HOW; We all agree that they "tacked" the rank tab on with several loops of thread at the corners of the patch or tab. This seemed to hold the insignia in place and allowed it to be removed very easily also. Sewing a patch on by machine was a very very rare exception & so rare that if you find it that way....beware! But in one case I have seen it & had reason to believe it was good. But keep in mind that the navy had a few different styles of backings for officers & enlisted rank & collar tabs and so the manor of attachment would & could be different. I can send a picture to Eric for viewing of some of the backs of these insignia if you are interested.

Sewing rank patches on upside down or backwards is doubtful. However, if I found a "good" uniform and it had "good" insignia on it but it appeared to have been added.....& the price was right....I would buy it. You can always remove the insignia & resell what you don't want. Waiting for the "perfect" piece only leaves you one thing.....waiting !

[RodneyO]

Mahalo John for all that information on rank insignias. It really make sense that rank tabs would be removed from tunics up front in the combat zones. I’ve seen pictures of German soldiers with shoulder straps upside down to hide their rank too. I forgot to mention, it was Imperial Army uniforms that I was referring to (I try collecting mostly army stuffs). If you look on Collector’s Guild’s web site, he has a very nice Colonels M98 tunic. When looking at the tunic, the left collar tab is upside down. I also seen some very nice tropical enlisted men uniforms (other web site) also with collar tab’s done this way. Is it ok? Any idea if these were done post war because insignia were removed after the war?
Rodney

[John Egger]

Insignia....

Rodney.....
Army insignia is pretty much straight forward.....tacked to the uniform. And of course alot was added post war to dress it up.....$$$$$$ sells better. I have heard from more than one vet and several Japanese that right after the war in order to survive the Japanese would take naval and army insignia and add buttons and pins to the insignia to dress it up for sale to Americans. It worked because I have seen numbers of groups brought home from occupied Japan with naval pins on army ranks and vice-versa. And there is still alot of surplus stuff around.....so it's easy to add a rank patch for sales. I have forwarded Eric several pages of naval insignia showing some of the attachment methods. Sorry there is not more on army to show.
Happy Holidays !!!!!
John

[Eric Doody]

Rodney et al.,

Here are the insignia that John Egger forwarded to me...

I will let John fill everyone in on the particaulars.

Eric

[Eric Doody]

Photo B...

[Eric Doody]

Photo C...

[Eric Doody]

Photo D...

[Eric Doody]

Photo E...

[Eric Doody]

Photo F...

[Eric Doody]

And finally, photo G...

[John Egger]

Sewing of insignia....

RodneyO & Just About Anyone Else,

These are pieces from my collection and I can comment on how they may have been worn.

A. Naval Officer Shirt Insignia; Larger than the collar insignia and of the 3 that I have seen all have the single clip on the back. Several threads are sewn to the shirt and the clip is slipped thru. Generally worn on as a single over the shirt pocket.

B. Naval Officers Collar Insignia; Standard rank insignia with the clip on back and can be attached to the collar or uniform in the same method as A.

C. Naval Officers Collar Insignia; Worn on the collar or shirt. Two loops of thread were sewn and the clips hooked around each. Very effective & simple.

D. Naval Officers Collar Insignia; Tacked to the uniform with thread. Most common.

E. Naval EM Round Rate (early 1930's) Full Dress rate. All of these have the metal loops on the back for attachment to the uniform.

F. EM Rank Rate; This is one of the "red on green" round rate worn by NLF troops. You can see the four areas at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock where the rate was tacked to the uniform.

G. Naval Medic Rate; This is a red cross on a white rate, worn by NLF. However the back has been modified. Several loops of thread placed on the sleeve and the wire is opened and slid thru and then closed. Again very effective.

Thank you Eric.....alot of work for the rest of us to enjoy !

[Jareth]

Aloha Rodney, enough period photos exist of dead Japanese soldiers with visible collar tabs showing. I've seen so many photos taken after a Banzai attack & they're all wearing collar tabs. Another group of photos exist of NLF soldiers who have commited suicide & they're wearing rank as well as round ratings. This is verifiable. Interesting post & perhaps you've overlooked existing post titled "Attachment Of Cloth Insignia" posted previously.

[cbuehler]

Yes, as Jareth has pointed out, insignia is often to be seen on mostly early or midwar photos of Japanese dead. By 1944 it was the exception rather than the rule.

CB

[Eric Doody]

Rodney et al.,

Aloha!

I offer the following comments on Army insignia:

With Meiji Type 44 (i.e., Model 1911)/Showa Type 5 (i.e., Model 1930) Army enlisted man and commissioned officer shoulder rank insignia, the insignia that were equipped with one or more five-pointed stars were typically worn on the shoulder of a tunic with the single point of the star(s) towards the backside of the wearer and the double points of the star(s) towards the front of the wearer. Non-rate insignia were equipped with yellow sewn-on stars while non-commissioned officers (NCO) and commissioned officer insignia were equipped with separately attached brass stars. The sewn-on and attached stars were centered on the insignia. The separately attached stars could turn or rotate on an insignia giving one the impression that the insignia may have been attached incorrectly.

Note: Lance corporal and warrant officer insignia were not equipped with any stars. Lance corporal, NCO, and officer insignia were equipped with a gold sewn-on braid(s).

With early Type 98 (i.e., Model 1938) Army enlisted men and Type 98 commissioned officer collar rank insignia, the insignia that were equipped with a one or more five-pointed stars were typically worn on the collar of a tunic with the single point of the star(s) up, or towards the face of the wearer while the double points of the star(s) were worn down, or away from the face of the wearer. Non-rate insignia were equipped with yellow sewn-on stars while NCO and commissioned officer insignia were equipped with separately attached aluminum stars. The sewn-on and attached stars were centered on the insignia. The separely attached stars could turn or rotate on an insignia giving one the impression that the insignia may have been attached incorrectly.

Note: Lance corporal and warrant officer insignia were not equipped with any stars. Lance corporal and NCO insignia were equipped with yellow sewn-on braid while officer insignia were equipped with gold sewn-on braid(s).

On late Type 98/early Type 3 (i.e., Model 1943) Army enlisted men collar rank insignia, the insignia that were equipped with a one or more five-pointed stars were typically worn on the collar of a tunic with the single point of the star(s) up, or towards the face of the wearer while the double points of the star(s) were worn down, or away from the face of the wearer. Non-rate insignia were equipped with yellow bevo stars while NCO insignia were equipped with white bevo stars. The bevo stars were centered on the insignia.

Note: Lance corporal insignia were not equipped with any stars. Lance corporal and NCO insignia were equipped with yellow bevo braid.

On later Type 3 Army enlisted men collar rank insignia, the insignia that were equipped with a one or more five-pointed stars were typically worn on the collar of a tunic with the single point of the star(s) up, or towards the face of the wearer while the double points of the star(s) were worn down, or away from the face of the wearer. Non-rate insignia were equipped with yellow bevo stars while NCO insignia were equipped with white bevo stars. The bevo stars were off-centered on the insignia. When these insignia were worn on the collar of a tunic, the insignia were worn such that the off-centered stars were towards the chest of the wearer.

Note: Lance corporal insignia were not equipped with any stars. Lance corporal and NCO insignia were equipped with yellow bevo braid.

On Type 3 Army commissioned officer collar rank insignia, the insignia that were equipped with a one or more five-pointed stars were typically worn on the collar of a tunic with the single point of the star(s) up, or towards the face of the wearer while the double points of the star(s) were worn down, or away from the face of the wearer. The insignia were equipped with separately attached aluminum stars that were off-centered on the insignia. When these insignia were worn on the collar of a tunic, the insignia were worn such that the off-centered stars were towards the chest of the wearer. The separately attached stars could turn or rotate on an insignia giving one the impression that the insignia may have been attached incorrectly.

Note: Warrant officer insignia were not equipped with any stars. Officer insignia were equipped with gold sewn-on braid(s).

My general rule of the thumb is that if a tunic is not equipped with properly applied original insignia then the insignia were more than likely post-war added.

Eric