Cased Vatican Knight Order of Saint Gregory + Mini

[Manu Dalton]

Just want to share this one with you guys. First time I ever got one of those. Is the box original to it ? The upper section look to be made to hold a ribbon for a neck piece. On the other a quick research on our friend Google provide of knight level order in those kind of cases. I'm kind of confuse on it and help will be appreciated.

I would alse like to know from wich era it date. I know the order as been established in 1831 but I also know Vatican keep give them today. From the box construction and the medal quality I would guess made in 1930-40 but would appreciate a second tought on that too.

[byterock]

Well from the book I have this is the Knight/Dame level of the Military division.

Not sure it this box is original to this level of the order and I do not think that pin belongs there.

If it is a higher level of the order then the place where the pin is you would see a rosette rather than a pin.

[Manu Dalton]

The pin dosnt belong there, Im sure of that. Its a pin from «La Société saint-Jean-Baptiste» a Quebec nationalist catholic organisation. But it would make sense the person who won the order will be a member of SJB.

So you say its maybe a lady case with a men order in it ?

[byterock]

Ah of course, La Société saint-Jean-Baptiste. I knew I have seen that pin before,

If it is a box for a bow mounted version it would be very recent 1989+ as it was only then that the order was open to women. check to see if it is made out of plastic.

I will check with a friend of mine if anyone in the SBJ got such an award. I do not think it would be someone in the modern SSBJ got the award as it has not been a Catholic Lay organization for some time I think in 1968 they split up.

[peter monahan]

Women who have been made Dames of the order [probably not a complete list]:

Ann Widdecombe, British politician
Isabel Piczek
Sheilagh Kesting, 2016, Former Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland and former Ecumenical Officer of the Church of Scotland.

It is quite conceivable that a person might be honoure with this awatd for cultural/relgious work in her community AND be a mamber of the secular SJB Societie as well, I think.

[Manu Dalton]

The case its not made of plastic. To me it look like a cardboard case made in the 1900-1940 era. The material of the case look like the one for a WWI / WWII EKI. This case is old, I have no doubt about it.

Also the inside part of the case is made of real cloth (similar again to a EKI case), not some cheap metarial like in the modern one. The locket is metal made.

[byterock]

Except this is the Military version of the Order. I do not think there are any female members of the Military division of the Order.

Hmm the Pin I think is for 'Saint Jean de Brébeuf' not the ' Société saint-Jean-Baptiste'. This initials are correct as is the
'Fleur-de-lis' and the sword (Jesuits are the soliders of christ.)

Check the Canadain Gazette for awards of this order to a Jesuit?

My buddy has never seen this pin by the way.

This is what should be in place of it

[Manu Dalton]

Oups...wrong ID on the pin! Thanks for that information!

So now I got a Order, in militray version, maybe given to a french canadian jesuit priest in a ladies box.

Maybe they just used the same box for both men/woman ? Any chance this is possible ?

Or maybe the set has just been put together somewhere in time... The SJB pin dont belong there, thats the only sure thing about it.

I'm pretty confident the box, mini and Order are old, at least the 1940. I have seen modern one in the past and they are not that quality made.

[byterock]

Well here is my take on it after checking a few other sources

1) No difference between the Civil and Military version of the Officer's Cross
2) Dames where first admitted in 1993
3) The box is for the Next highest level Commander and is orginal
4) The order is almost exclusively for Lay-Catholics


My guess on age is immediate post war to late 50s.

Still have one contact to report back to see if it was ever awarded to Canadians.


Cheers

[Manu Dalton]

Thnaks a lot for all those informations! Very appreciated.

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

the Order of St. Gregory is divided into civil and a military divisions.

The civil one, has the suspension shaped as a green enamelled laurel wreath (as the piece hereby discussed)

The military one, has the suspension shaped as a golden trophy-of-arms.

The piece of Manu Dalton is a fine piece in the typical, italian manufacture of Tanfani & Bertarelli, thus the case.

In my opinion, the case and the miniature are later than the cross itself (this, dating to the '20s-'50s of 20th Century), while the case and miniature can be dated to the '70s.

Usually, the Vatican orders have the cases with the lid embossed with the reigning Pope's coat-of-arms, while this one has a "generic" Vatican arms with crossed keys and papal crown.

I don't think that the case belongs to the higher class of Commander, because the cross perfectly fits in the inner compartment. The Commander's decoration is larger than the Knight's one.

Best wishes,

E.L.

[Remark116]

My grandfather was a Knight Commander of Order of Saint Gregory. He was a Western Canadian appointed to the order in 1962.

I really never paid attention to the medal. I believe my grandmother kept the medal when he died. I never heard about the medal after she passed away. So it is likely bouncing around somewhere in Canada.

My grandfather was buried in the rest of the uniform complete with sword. All I can say is that I did not find the uniform very attractive. I also remember as a kid playing with the sword and being disappointed that it wasn't sharp.

[peter monahan]

Despite being an RC myself, with clergy members in the close family, I'm a bit cynical about the orders, as I know one lawyer who got a minor one for organizing tours of the Holy Lands and several people who insist on referring to themselves as 'Sir XXX' on the basis of being Knights of St Gregory. That title and $2.00 will get you a coffee most places! And ALL the swords are disappointiongly dull and usually poorly made. I appreciate the idea of awarding good works, but not by aping the customs of a mostly dead and fairly irrelevant feudal system!

And on that Grinchy note, Happy Christmas to all and peace on Earth to men of good will.

[NavyFCO]

I was offered membership in the Order of St. Gregory, but between the tax on it and the fact I was in the military (and the lengthy approval process to actually accept the award) I turned it down. I didn't think the medal was too bad looking...much better than anything I earned in the military!