French boots ID

[michelwijnand]

I got these French canvas boots a few years back, but I have no idea what era I am looking at for these. I have seen the low ones made by Palladium that were made in the 50's, but that's not what these are.

[TimoJ]

These are the ones before Palladium boots, which came out in the mid Algeria War. I think these were late Indochine-early Algerie.

Timo

[paul.j]

boots

These are from nowhere near the Indochina period. These would of come out probably in the 70's and were still worn not all that long ago, I would not be surprised if they are still being used.

[lew]

These are from nowhere near the Indochina period. These would of come out probably in the 70's and were still worn not all that long ago, I would not be surprised if they are still being used.

You are correct. The Pataugas with the buckles appeared in the early '70's. Too late for Indo/Algérie. Some units today still use the buckle-equipped model in various colors, like blue for the national police.

Palladium still makes the same shoe (the insole has been altered, and that's that) that was used en Indochine et Algérie (model name Hi Pampa, color OTAN) if you want a modern reproduction. I wear mine frequently.

[michelwijnand]

Ok thanks guys, I should get some other boots for my Algerian War kit then!

[lew]

Ok thanks guys, I should get some other boots for my Algerian War kit then!

Get either the Palladium Hi Pampas I mentioned in my previous post or Mle. 52 rough-out buckle boots. Tranchee Militaire in France usually has some. If not, look at ebay.fr. The prices on ebay.com for these boots are almost always ludicrous. I highly doubt you'll be able to find Mle. 49 or 50 jump boots.

If you get boots, just add oil. I use Neatsfoot. There are tons out there, so take your pick. They were not typically seen blackened them the last couple years of the war, and most units never did that. 3e RPC/3e RPIMa (Col. Marcel Bigeard's unit) was a rare exception and did blacken their boots from the get-go.

If you need any help creating an Algerian War (or Indochina) impression, feel free to ask. I have almost 10k pictures and good-sized library. I'm still always learning, but I have tons of info.

[michelwijnand]

I don't know which are the 49, 50 or 52 jump boots, but I'd settle for any I can find.
Only difference I know of is seen in this photo, with the left one having a one-piece side from top to bottom, and the right one having the top part sewn on the bottom.



As of now my loadout will consist of:

TTA47 Lizard camo suit Modele Generale
TAP M56 Helmet with camo-net
Tropical hat
M51 belt and shoulder straps
M52 canteen pouch with canteen
2 MAT49 magazine pouches
Small leather pouch (I think it's the type for a cleaning kit)
3-Cell grenade pouch US style
Backpack that I've seen on Indo-China photos, but don't know the exact type of
Lizard camo tent-halve
And buckle boots I need to buy

I was inspired a bit by this photo (and some others), but wanted to make it with more gear. I also have an M56 para jacket, but no pants with it, so I have the TTA47 suit, which I've seen in several photos

[michelwijnand]

Oh I forgot I also have this backpack, I think it's a mountaineers backpack, but I don't know the exact type




And after looking at that shop you mentioned, I saw that my other backpack seems to be this one, I don't know which
of these 2 would be more correct?

http://www.trancheemilitaire.com/fr/...nee-50-60.html

[lew]

1) Boots (chaussures): Those are the Mle. 52, second type. The First type had a single strap. Second, introduced in 1956, had the two riveted straps. Third type had two straps made from the same piece of leather, introduced in 1960. I've never seen the first type for sale. The Mle. 49 and 50 did not have the buckle cuff and were laced all the way to the calf.

That picture is of troops from 3e RPC in the Casbah in Algiers, Fall 1957.

2) Backpack (sac à dos): Those packs pictured are the correct type, but the leather is wrong. The yellow leather appeared in the field in late 1962 (too late for Algeria) and the green in the early '70's. The Musette TTA Mle. 50 in the Tranchee link would be correct for use by non-airborne, non-commando forces in Algeria, so think regular infantry, etc... The Bergam (the two your picture) Mle. 51 was very common amongst all units, airborne or not. The Musette Mle. 55 was used exclusively by airborne units. The Musette TAP Mle. 51, used extensively in Indochina, did see some use in the early years of Algeria. Good luck finding one in decent condition. There is a variant of the Bergam that was issued to the Chasseurs Alpins (Alpine Hunters, mountain troops) that had the addition of some extra straps and a leather ice ax loop.

4) Your gear list: Looks pretty good overall, but that depends on the specific unit impression. Looks like you're going for an airborne impression.
TTA47 Lizard camo suit Modele Generale -Doursoux.com sells a wonderful TAP Mle. 47/56 repro set. The TTA Mle. 47/58 camo was sometimes used by airborne forces, but the 47/56 would be more appropriate. The Mles. 47/51/52/53/54 were all seen in the early years. I also have a British Windproof set from eBay member "panzerfaust1943". This was not issued to whole units, but some individuals wore them. 13e RDP had lots.
TAP M56 Helmet with camo-net -US-helmet nets were more common early on. The "barracuda" camo covers typically appeared after 1960. Good catch on the Mle. 56.
Tropical hat -Mle. 49 Chapeau de brousse. Tan color was used in Indo solely. Both tan and OD were seen in Algérie
M51 belt and shoulder straps -Correct nomenclature: TAP Mle. 50 belt (ceinturon) with single hook; Mle. 50/53 with interlocking metal loops. The latter was first issued in Indo in late '53 and was not very common. Both work for Algérie.
M52 canteen pouch with canteen -The Mle. 51 was rarely seen in AFN, so good move.
2 MAT49 magazine pouches
Small leather pouch (I think it's the type for a cleaning kit) -This was rarely worn and instead stowed in a pack. On short duration missions, troops traveled light, so this would not be along at all. Black or natural leather will work. No mustard yellow or green.
3-Cell grenade pouch US style -Make sure this is the French copy and not the US one.
Backpack that I've seen on Indo-China photos, but don't know the exact type of -see above section
Lizard camo tent-halve -Either the Mle. 51 4-part pyramid (Zeltbahn) or the two piece Mle. 56 pup tent will work. The Mle. 51 doubles as a poncho if you didn't know.
And buckle boots I need to buy -the Mle. 52 mentioned above.

5) Berets: The three part berets were the standard in Indochina. Metropolitan airborne units (notably 1e RCP, which saw lots of action in Indo) were issued the one-piece Mle.52 when they changed their beret color from black to royal blue in 1952. The Mle. 52 would surpass the three-part berets, although the latter could be seen until the late '50's, if not later. The Mle. 52 would be correct for units in Algeria. The Colonial para units- 1e, 2e,3e, 6e, 8e Régiments de Parchutistes Coloniales always had the maroon (amarante) beret. Their insignia was changed from the winged sword to the winged sword superimposed over a fouled anchor in March 1958. They were redesignated Régiments de Parachutistes de Marine (RPIMa) in December 1958. Metropolitan para units (1e, 9e, 14e, 18e RCPs; 1e, 11e, 12e BPCs; 1e RHP; 13e RDP; and support units) had the royal blue beret with winged sword from 1952- September, 1957, when they switched to the same insignia with maroon beret. Some of those airborne support units used the tan beret with the winged sword insignia.

A note about the Mle. 49 chapeau de brousse and headgear in general: Most airborne units did not wear them often or at all. For example, the standard headgear for 3e RPC was the casquette Bigeard (what they're wearing in that picture). Airborne units had these from the get-go. It was later made army stand as the Mle. 59. Some units had unit-specific head gear until early 1958 when the order was casquettes Bigeard or berets in the field. 2e RPC and 14e RCP- custom, painted bush hats; 1e RCP: camo berets; and there were some others. Foreign Legion para units (1e, 2e, 3e REPs) either wore the Mle. 49 chapeu de brousse, green beret, or the kepi (more for garrison or walking-out). Legion units did not wear the casuette bigeard. Commandos de Marine typically wore their green beret or the casquette Bigeard. Commandos de 'lAir had their own Bigeard cap and a black beret.

Most infantry (Metropolitan, Colonial, those artillery or support units converted to infantry) wore the standard Mle. 47 TTA uniform; Mle. 45 leather belt, pouches (to include the one you have), and braces; Mle. 52 boots, Mle. 49 bush hat. One of the units for which I have an impression- 15e RTS/75e RIMa- was one of the rare colonial infantry units to wear the airborne equipment and uniform.

For shirts, the standard was the Mle. 48 button down shirt. There were two issued A-shirts (tank tops, wife beaters)- one in white and the other in tan/beige. OD tank tops are equally as common, and I cannot tell if they were issued. Judging by the prevalence, I'd say yes.

Sorry for the long-winded post. Enjoy!

[michelwijnand]

Thanks, a lot of information to read, but it's a good read

I have since bought a pair of Rangers, the model with the top half sewn on the lower boot half.

I didn't know about the yellow leather being too late, the green one is just in the photo because this is the only photo showing the lower pack, from when I tried to sell this lot.

The unit I'd be going for with my impression, isn't 100% certain a para, but just anything that matches the stuff I have, or could get. Though I have seen way more para's with the actual TAP uniforms, I did see a limited few with model TTA and Allegé. But if my kitlist would fit another unit better, that would be ok too.

Here is a pic of my webbing as it is now, and per your information, the cleaning kit pouch will be taken off, due to the color.
As you can see, the grenade pouch is the French one, and I have the canteen pouch with 4 buttons, dated 1955, though I also have a 2-buttoned one.

I also laid the backpack I mentioned before in here, just to be sure it's the Musette TTA Mle.50.
Do you have a photo of the Mle.55, and TAP Mle.51 musettes? I can't find any clear info about them.

[lew]

I'm happy to help.

Here is the Musette TAP Mle. 55: http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id...anguage,E.html

The Mle. 50 can be found here in comparison to the Mle. 51: http://frenchindochinawar.proboards.com/thread/466

Other than that, your kit looks pretty good. Two things:

1) The mixing of the TTA Mle. 51 pack with the TAP web gear of which you are aware. Someone probably did it, but I haven't seen any proof. The Mle. 51 Bergam would be your best bet, since it was used by practically everyone from it's introduction during Indochina into the '70's (maybe further).

2) The four-button canteen pouch is post-war. Late '60's, IIRC.

You have a good start, and I hope you have a great time assembling the rest. Again, I'm here if you need any questions answered. Cheers!

[lew]

About the uniforms: The TAP uniform in it's various guises (Tenues TAP Mles. 47/5x series) would definitely be the norm, and you are correct that both the TTA Mle. 47 and 47/52 and Allégée were worn by some para units in small quantities.

Those Metropolitan para units that did not see action in Indochina (9e, 14e, 18e RCP; 1e RHP; 13e RDP; etc...) were typically equipped with a non-TAP uniform for the first year or so of the war. Since the Metro paras were trained and equipped by the US in WW2, they had lots of US equipment and uniforms, plus they along with other Metropolitan units were the first to receive any US MAP aid intended for NATO use. The colonial units, 1e RCP, and 1e and 11e Choc were fully equipped with le tenue TAP.

11e Choc is an exception to the rule: First, being the top of the pile, they could get whatever they wanted. Second, at least during the first couple years of the war, they would frequently wear le tenue TTA Mle. 47/52 to not stand out as a para unit in the field and to masquerade as a lesser-quality unit (supply, etc...) pressed into the infantry role in the hopes of attracting an enemy thinking he's in for an easy meal, only to turn the tables. They wore the TAP webbing exclusively.

Also, keep your eyes peeled. What might look like the regular TTA Mle. 47 could very well be a TAP uniform item. The TAP Mle. 47/53, 47/54 and 47/56 all had non-camouflage, olive drab versions. It's not uncommon to see these pants worn with a camo jacket. Pay close attention to the cargo pockets on the trousers.

If you don't have them, the books Le Paras Français en Indochine and Le Paras Français en Algérie are basically the Bible vols. 1 and 2 when it comes to this period. 13e RDP: Combats en Algérie Is another fantastic resource. They are all in French, but it's pretty easy for an English speaker to figure it out.

[michelwijnand]

Great, thanks again. I saw a musette TAP55 for sale, just was too late at home to bid on it :P
And I just added my TTA51 to that photo to show it, not because I'm still using it with my impression, but I'll just keep it for if someday I might want to make a normal army impression too.

And I've just replaced the 4-button canteen pouch with my other 2-button example, and the cleankit pouch is taken off the gear too.

I actually don't have any good books on anything, as I don't have any specific field/country of collecting of which are good books. I mainly collect Russian/Serbian combat uniforms and gear, and occasionally jump over the iron curtain to make a "foreign" impression, and this is one such time
The only other French impression I have is a Daguet one, and I might make an Algerian War infantry sometime after this.

[lew]

Well, like I said, you're off to a respectable start. I held on to my Musette Mle. 51 never know when I could use it.

I just won a Musette Mle. 55 the other day, so it was probably me to that beat you to the punch.

If you are interested in further research or discussion, although the forum is mostly abandoned, a couple of us have essentially commandeered the French Indochina Reenactors Board and still check in regularly. Lots of good information, and any questions posted can be answered quickly. Cheers!

[michelwijnand]

Haha it could have been the same, was it from france?

It doesn't matter for me though, as now I got this!



And these, size 46