St. George Cross 2. class

[Canutt]

Hallo,
what di you think about this cross? Is it good?

Thanks
mario

[Canutt]

2

[Tim Tezer]

Hard to tell from a photo, but everything about it looks OK except the color. It seems unusually dark, but that just may be the photograph. These crosses were struck from "yellow metal", not bronze. It is a brass-like alloy that is very light in color and doesn't really develop a dark patina the way that bronze and brass do.

Other things to check are to make sure the numbers are stamped into the reverse, not engraved, and check the edges very carefully to see if there are any indications of a casting seem. I have seen very high quality cast copies of these. If you drop it onto a hard smooth surface, like a granite kitchen counter, it should make a nice ringing sound if it's die-struck; a dull sound may indicate that it is a cast copy.

I hope this helps.

Tim

[HuliganRS]

What's the asking price? What's the description like?

Usually if it's fake they know exactly what they are selling...

[J Howland]

If you can, hold the cross end-wise and look at the ends of each arm. If one or more of the ends of the arms tilt sharply in / or out \, it could be a soviet era (or later) copy made to sell in museum gift shops.

I've seen many 1980's/90's fakes that have good looking fronts and backs, but because the "masters" used to make the copies were apparently not the same size (why, I do not know - unless the faker chose two different crosses to make his masters), the person doing the casting had to fudge the dimensions when making his mold. In some cases the "slant" on the edges will be almost 45 degrees...

It's tough to describe in words, but once you see it, you will recognize it immediately.

Jim

[Tim Tezer]

Jim,

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that a lot of the repros are die-struck, but that the edges are not perpendicular to the surfaces of the cross? Am I on the right track here?

Tim

[HuliganRS]

Now they make the crosses like the originals!!! I would be very carefull buying one!

Rusty.

[J Howland]

I wish that I still had one of the copies that I picked up as a copy from one of the Russian emigre dealers back in the early nineties: the front looked good, the back looked good - they just weren't the same size. In other words, they weren't struck - they did not have paralell edges all the way around.

I think the guys making the copies were aware of the problem and tried to correct it. I have a 2nd Class cross actually made from gold that the ends of the cross arms at 3, 6 and 9 are perfectly paralell, but the arm at 12 - well, it's higher on the back side than it is at the front and the top slants upward from the from edge to the back edge...

Here's the problem: virtually every czarist cross and medal was produced by several different makers, many of whom had only minimal skill and/or quality control. Contrary to what we assumed here in the west, copies of these were made during the soviet era: for movies, for museums, for sale to unsuspecting westerners. Add to all these: the fakes made in St. Petersburg in the 90's and today in our own Brighton Beach area in NY.

Well, my motto is: I'll buy these things if the price is reasonable and they look good in a frame up on the wall. But while I think that most of my czarist regimental & society breast badges are good, I hold no such hopes at all for any of the medals and crosses I own.

For that matter: probably all bronze-gilt, enamelled czarist order crosses sold in this country since 1990 are fakes - particularly if the hallmark on the back is on a little raised rectangle...

Sorry for the prolonged rant!

Jim

[Tim Tezer]

No need to apologize for your rant, Jim. The non-parallel edges is an interesting bit of information. Having handled a large, older collection of Imperial Russian medals and orders last year I have now seen quite a few originals but in the entire collection there was only one fake (a cross of St. George 1st class in yellow metal). So now I'm eager to see some of the high-quality fakes and see how they stack up. One thing is for sure, a hallmark on a raised rectangle is NOT a feature I have seen on any original pieces.

Tim

[J Howland]

...One thing is for sure, a hallmark on a raised rectangle is NOT a feature I have seen on any original pieces.

Tim[/QUOTE]


I had already purchased a bronze gilt second class St. Anne and a bronze gilt second class St. Stanislaus from emigre dealers at gun shows in the early to mid-90's when the dime dropped.

Both 2nd Class crosses had Eduard hallmarks which, rather oddly, were on little raised squares.... Hmmm. I'd never seen anything like that before.

Then one day when I was looking at the hallmark section in the back of one of my books on Faberge, I realized that some of the photos of the firm's various types of hallmarks (which I knew were definitely tapped down into the surface of the metal) frequently looked raised in the photos! It was a result of the raking light shone on them to make the hm's really stand out clearly in the photos...

Obviously, the faker of the Russian bronze gilt order crosses was working, at least in part, from photo references that also looked like they were raised. The faker didn't know any better and that's why he elected to cut his dies when he made his copies...

Jim