Rarest 1915 Adrian?

[rajko84]

And here is some my from Kingdom Serbia and Yugoslavia (other other time).

Nice collection
Where in Europe you live?

[cossack1648]

Adrians

Nice Ukrainian helmets. I think those would be the rarest of all M15's. After communist occupation and Great Hunger little must have survived. Also since they were mostly individually decorated by soldiers themselves, determining originality would be tough.
Jack

[Askold]

Nice Ukrainian helmets. I think those would be the rarest of all M15's. After communist occupation and Great Hunger little must have survived. Also since they were mostly individually decorated by soldiers themselves, determining originality would be tough.
Jack

- One of the reasons why any Ukrainian insignias/uniforms from that period would be so hard to find is that in 60's the Russians purged all Ukrainian museum collections. Anything that had to do with Ukrainian statehood, such as flags, uniforms and photographs - was to be removed from storages and burned.

[vox]

Nice collection
Where in Europe you live?

Thanks. Slovenia.

[langemarck]

great helmets all many years ago I had the possibility to buy an Adrian with the painted deadshead for Stormtroopres but I missed itstill remember that one very well

nobody has the mysterious Russian M28 in his collection?

[Lightfoot]

Russian dark grey adrian

Have somebody ever seen russian dark greyish adrians? Or were there only khaki coloured russian adrians?

[hagen.191]

Here is my russian post ww1 civil war adrian. What do you guys think of it?

[hagen.191]

[Tom Buck]

US M1917 French M15 93rd Inf. Div. Conversion

Peter and Frederic:

Can we jump back in time a few years back to the earlier discussion in this thread about the Chris Armold 93rd Inf. Div. helmet?

Frederic, how can you be sure that the dome of the helmet is of British manufacture? Chris does not say in his book that his one is. He actually writes that its a "standard M1917 crown." How can you tell that the one you have is of British origin? All of the "tells" that would identify it as British or American were wiped away when the brim was cut off. Over lapping rim, round or split rivets, manufacturer, inspector and production stamps are all gone.

Is there an ink stamp on the liner indicating a where it was made?

Very curious.
Tom

[Peter_Suciu]

Can we jump back in time a few years back to the earlier discussion in this thread about the Chris Armold 93rd Inf. Div. helmet?

Frederic, how can you be sure that the dome of the helmet is of British manufacture? Chris does not say in his book that his one is. He actually writes that its a "standard M1917 crown." How can you tell that the one you have is of British origin? All of the "tells" that would identify it as British or American were wiped away when the brim was cut off. Over lapping rim, round or split rivets, manufacturer, inspector and production stamps are all gone.

Is there an ink stamp on the liner indicating a where it was made?

All these years later I still maintain it is just a French helmet without a comb with an American liner added.

As I said years ago, why would you go through the trouble of taking part of an American M1917 and combine it with a French 1915 helmet? And let's add a layer to this... why would you do any of those things whilst fighting a war in Europe?

I'll be blunt - as I usually am - I really don't care. I hadn't thought of this subject in years. I haven't held the helmet, haven't even seen the helmet except in photos. With that in mind I could be 100 percent wrong, but trying to argue this further is fruitless for those reasons. I'm just basing my opinion on what I'm seeing in the photos - and from the shape of a French M15 and a British MkI/American M1917.

Sure you can make a Frankenhelm I suppose but the still unanswered question is why? Why not just issue the 93rd American M1917 helmets?

[Tom Buck]

All these years later I still maintain it is just a French helmet without a comb with an American liner added.

As I said years ago, why would you go through the trouble of taking part of an American M1917 and combine it with a French 1915 helmet? And let's add a layer to this... why would you do any of those things whilst fighting a war in Europe?

I'll be blunt - as I usually am - I really don't care. I hadn't thought of this subject in years. I haven't held the helmet, haven't even seen the helmet except in photos. With that in mind I could be 100 percent wrong, but trying to argue this further is fruitless for those reasons. I'm just basing my opinion on what I'm seeing in the photos - and from the shape of a French M15 and a British MkI/American M1917.

Sure you can make a Frankenhelm I suppose but the still unanswered question is why? Why not just issue the 93rd American M1917 helmets?

Peter:
That is the question, why? Maybe it's the mystery that draws me to these "odd ball" helmets. One of your endearing qualities is your bluntness and your, "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Show me the cloud." attitude.

No one is arguing with you. You're right, seeing as how it would be fruitless as you've only seen pictures but I can tell you with absolute certainty that this is not a French helmet with an American M1917 liner (or British MKI for that matter). This is either an American M1917 or a British MKI that's been cut down and married to a French M15 visor.

Frederic seems to think that the example that he has is a British / French hybrid. I was asking him how he's so sure that his dome it's not of US manufacture. I should mention that I ask because I just bought the one in Chris's book from the late Mac West's son. The liner is ink stamped A.E. Little Co. - Boston

I find it curious that his example is also missing it's comb, a feature that obviously was not on the original M1917 or MKI. I thought that my example was just damaged but his as well?

Our artillery badges are also the same, big chunky ones that are attached to the shell with a set of nuts and bolts. They are not the stamped sheet metal ones that you'd see on a standard M15 but almost look to be cast. Again why? This makes my example not some sort of one off anomaly. I've actually located a third in Erie, PA. I'm waiting for the collector to send me some photo's.

As Frederic wrote, his example came from the United States. We now, potentially, have three from the USA. Right now I'm fishing, seeing where the stream takes me. Why? Why not?

As always, I'll keep you posted.
Frederic, what do you have for me?

Tom

[Peter_Suciu]

I can tell you with absolute certainty that this is not a French helmet with an American M1917 liner (or British MKI for that matter). This is either an American M1917 or a British MKI that's been cut down and married to a French M15 visor.

Frederic seems to think that the example that he has is a British / French hybrid. I was asking him how he's so sure that his dome it's not of US manufacture. I should mention that I ask because I just bought the one in Chris's book from the late Mac West's son. The liner is ink stamped A.E. Little Co. - Boston

Thanks for the information Tom, and for accepting my bluntness at times.

Without seeing the helmet I can only go based what is in Armold's book, which I guess has me asking another question... how do we know these helmets were actually meant for the 93rd? Armold suggests in but offers no proof.

I'm actually sorry this thought wasn't brought up years ago, but now I have to wonder if these are in fact helmets designated for the 93rd ID at all? Who is to say these were some unknown experimental that was developed independently of Dr. Bashford Dean's efforts.

That would be my first thought. Armold even said that the French used helmets were issued WITHOUT badges. These helmets have badges so that seems odd, but what is odder is that the badges are artillery.

Now, why would the 93rd ID wear artillery badges? That has never made a ton of sense to me.

I have another theory - perhaps these were intended for American artillery units as an experimental. The French helmets were designed after all to stop low velocity impacts as in artillery blasts as opposed to high velocity impacts (bullets). So could this have been an attempt to develop a Franco-American artillery helmet and along the way it was forgotten?

A final theory is that these were film props. There were a number of WWI movies produced in the 1920s and 1930s.

Anyway, that's my other thinking. Again, I don't really know, but I still must question why anyone would make a special helmet for one infantry unit. That seems unlikely and while I respect the work that Armold put into the book he might have been wrong. I don't see these helmets referenced in other works including Dean's.

[stray_dog]

A final theory is that these were film props. There were a number of WWI movies produced in the 1920s and 1930s.

I also thought about this. I just made a quick search about early US ww1-themed films and there are plenty of them, the first of them having been filmed in 1917.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_I_films

The films themselves can also be watched online on some of the pages, they might be worth a more detailed look regarding the "french" helmets.

Regards,
Giorgos

[DerSteve]

Romanian M15 Adrian helmet

Here are pictures of my *Romanian Adrian* helmet.

Text from http://brendonshelmets.weebly.com/romania-m15.html:

French M15 Adrian helmet with second pattern French suspension. The badge is the first variation with "King Ferdinand I" and the background cypher of "King Carol I" which was placed in memory after his death in 1914. This helmet was used in WWI to 1923, it has been repainted green probably post WWI, in 1923 all helmets were painted Khaki as per uniform decree. The badge is 73mm high and 57mm wide. I have been informed that this helmet, due to the colour scheme, would have most likely seen use in the Romanian-Hungarian war of 1919, which was fought from November 1918 to early 1920.

[DerSteve]

^^ A interesting thing on this helmet is that parts of the liner may be made with matarial from the early red trousers worn by the French army in 1914 which switched colour later.



So the manufacturers were processing the old or unusable clothes for example in producing liners for *Adrian* helmets.