Gallipoli star [sic]

[Blitz]

Thanks for the info, Dave. That does give some food for thought...

[Simon O.]

Here's a photo of the decoration in wear.

Photo taken on the occasion of the visit to Tromsø, Norway of Gen.Lt. Konrad Goltz Inspector general of the Seenotdienstes taken during the summer of 1941 or '42. Goltz himself had a connection with Turkey as Kommandeur der Seeflieger in der Türkei during 1917 and '18. I wonder if he was visiting an old buddy from those days?







Simon

[Tim Tezer]

Here I go again...

I've mentioned it in this forum before, and on my web site at www.turkishmedals.net, but maybe it's time I wrote an article for the OMSA journal or something. Fact is, the Turkish issues came in TWO types - the flat lacquered pieces that everyone refers to as Turkish issues, and the BB&Co. enameled pieces. Most people refer to the BB&Co. pieces as being German made, which is probably true. Nonetheless, they were used as original awards by the Turkish military, and many groups awarded to Turkish recipients contain the BB&Co. pieces. In all likelihood, the enameled pieces were probably awarded to officers, while the lacquered pieces were handed out to enlisted men.

To further support this contention, I have looked at numerous groups to German recipients that contain BOTH a lacquered War Medal and an enameled one, and usually what you will find is that the enameled one is NOT made by BB&Co. Why is that important? Because it means that those recipients went out and bought a private purchase enameled badge, but none of them ended up with the BB&Co. badges. The reason for this is simple - the BB&Co. badges were NOT made up as private purchase pieces, but were supplied to the Turkish government for issue. The reason why the Turks subcontracted the manufacture of these badges is unclear, but it is obvious that both types were contracted out. The Turkish mint obviously did not make the flat lacquered pieces, because the quality is vastly inferior to the orders that were made by the mint. So, all of the Turkish War Medals (or Gallipoli Stars, if you prefer) were made by subcontractors either in Turkey, Austria or Germany.

In short, the BB&Co. silvered brass pieces and the lacquered, unmarked "enlisted man's" pieces were official Turkish issue.

Tim

[Rick Research]

Based on the statistical sample of all the groups I have seen over many long years, I can only echo Tim in that my understanding is that the BB&Co pieces had to have been the "standard issue" of pieces awarded within German units, simply because of their universality and distribution in groups from all over Germany. A "local" purveyor back in Germany would not have reached that "market dominance."

The Turkish made painted pieces were, frankly, hideous, embarassing looking icky dreck. It's understandable that anyone who was handed one would have replaced it with almost ANYTHING that looked better, as soon as possible. Since German units were authorized to bestow this award down to quite absurd levels, someone on the QM chain of command buying better ones to hand out would have been logical. The sheer numbers of BB&Co pieces give every indication that they were indeed the "normal" non-Turkish wartime "in theatre" issue pieces. Combined with their bizarre pin assembly, I'd also say look no further than Constantinople for the mysterious "BB&Co."

But that's aa subject for another "types" thread and not this specific item for sale thread.

[McCulloh]

Tamerlane:

Since were' on the subject, Ereruten is of the opinion in e-mail correspondence which I think I posted here waaaaay back in 2001, that the BB & Co. stars are almost certtianly "foreign made" subcontract peices due to the Tughra being wrong. On your web site attribute this to the fact that the Minister of War authorized them What is your source for this?
Thanks,
JeMc

[Tim Tezer]

The decoration was authorized and awarded by the Turkish War Department - essentially by Enver Pasha, not the Sultan. The award documents do not bear the Sultan's Tughra. Liman von Sanders is said to have had the authority to make awards of this decoration, and to have been supplied with BB&Co. badges for this purpose. Unfortunately, when he wrote his autobiography, he didn't write it with medal collectors in mind, so he didn't leave us with his recollections of how the badges were procured.

As for the maker? In a previous thread back in 2001 it came up that Binder Brothers of Ludenscheid sold their jewelry in the United States before 1917 using this English name, and that they marked their pieces "B.B.& Co.". This may have been a hallmark used only for export. If they made the medals for the Turkish government, they may very well have placed their "export" hallmark on them. Of course, there is no documentary evidence that Binder Brothers made the Gallipoli Stars, but it's by far the best explanation I have ever heard.

The "B.B. & Co." mark was also used by Bastian Brothers in the U.S., but as mentioned in this forum previously, it is highly unlikely that Bastian Brothers manufactured the decorations for the Turkish Government.

Tim

[Michel]

German made.

[Michel]

Back

[Michel]

3

[Christian L]

a really nice example you have Michel!
seems to be worn not very often - and a clear emaile!
christian

[McCulloh]

Tamerlane:
Thank you. I wrote the above post about the Bastien Brothers Company, which stopped using the BB & Co mark in 1917, but were in partial receivership as of 1916. Bastiens also used it for flatware and household items and nobody seems to know if they made costume jewlery. Binders however have always been primarily a mass market jewlery company. Binders used it the trademark in 1917/18, but probably used it earlier, being unaware that the Massachusetts company had the trademark.
Binders had a series of lady's hat pins and broachs (of cats, dogs etc.) that one can still see today on ebay. However, their earlier work is rarer and I saw a cat pin on ebay last year go for $200! The seller refused to show me the pin catch arrangement in the back as I was too late to bid. I thought $200 was too much to see if perhaps Binders had sold a crate of pin backs and catchs to their German cousins, but this would explain the odd BB & Co. catch arrangement (why not use older, susbstandard materials and not violate rationing?).
The Tugrha, if made in Turkey (and that is on the medal itself) should have been perfect, so as not to be a political statement. Even given the more "liberal" attitudes post 1913 (the Union movement/Young Turks etc.) in Turkey, such a thing was risky-and noticable. This is why Erertuen thinks the stars were made in Germany. Such a mistake by Turkey's ally and largest import/export/partner/ aid provider was excusable-no intentional nor latent politics, merely a mistake by a good friend. This is his thesis and I think it makes sense. As Rick stated, the ubiquity of the stars to Germans and some Turks indicates an issue piece.
Lastly, even before 1914 the Ottoman Empire experienced massive production and manufacturing problems. In a country that struggled to produce uniforms, bayonets and belt buckles/catchs, insignia etc..etc. medals were far down the list of priorities.
Lastly, I am positive that Erertuen has identified the Harp Medalyari as being manufactured at the Ottoman Mint in Istanbul.
Cheers,
JeMc

[Tim Tezer]

Jeff,

You're right that Erureten identifies the maker of the lacquered pieces as being the Ottoman Mint. However, while I agree with his observation about the BB&Co. pieces being made in Berlin (or at least in Germany), I am not so quick to agree with his conclusion that the cheap lacquer pieces were made by the mint. First, they have no mint mark, even though there is ample space to put one on the back. Second, the quality is so execrable that I just can't see how the same makers who produced the beautifully enamelled Osmanie and Mejidie orders could make those lacquered stars. I might be inclined to believe that they were farmed out by the mint to a subcontracter in Turkey, but unless they were ordered to crank the things out as fast as possible without regards to quality, I am a bit skeptical that they were made at the Mint.

That's just my two bits.

Tim

[McCulloh]

Fair enough. We know the mint made 'em in the war-just not which types. But if surmise the mint quality was superior to the painted types, then that leaves us only with potentially blank back pieces, the funny one with the palm tree back and BB & Co. types that we know were passed out in the war.
In the last e-mail I got from Erertuen-way back before the war began (and my computer got w.32 virused) he mentioned that he was now focusing on the Harp and that perhaps some medals were made in Damascus.
I had sent him a complete print out of our discussions here and although his english is inadequate to allow him to post here, he has a fluent friend who was checking in.
I also received a large envelope from my hired graduate student Fatima with award docs xeroxed from the archives. Unfortunetly they are all in arabic script and I supposein phonetic Turkish/Persian.
I have given them to my friend Steve down in the Near Eastern Languages & Cultures Dept. and he's promised to look at them and provide a summary. I am hoping to get some sort of staistical cross section of awards.
Interestingly, in the latest book on the Turkish war of 1914-1918 (Ordered To Die) it clearly states that there were no more than @35,000 Germans in the Ottoman possessions in 1918-the peak of German intervention. This provides a useful approximation for the maximum number of Halfmoons that could've been awarded (My guess @50,000 tops) to Germans & Austrians.
Once we can post again I shall post a snap from July, 1918 that I'm 90% certain is BB & Co. by the shape of the tughra and the swirl center pattern. It's an ex-Stogie collection.

[TerryG]

Turkish

Well here's mine, purchased from a collector in Istanbul. These are still very popular out there as they are passed on to the families who tend to look after them and....keep them. Prices in Turkey for these are going up so Euro 30 is a great price indeed. Detlev and J.Cross I believe ask about Euros 120/150 for one of these...I cannot see the original photo but beware as there are many fakes, made in Turkey to satisfy the demand from the locals and from the tourists.

[McCulloh]

Yup. Nice one!
The prices of these have DOUBLED ++ in 5 years-mostly because of the discussions we've been having on this forum I suspect. I was lucky to get a great one with box from Spinks for $65 in '98. Rick sniffed and said "why spend more than $35?", but hey, can't argue with the market.
Two other bits of information:
1. BB & Co. types show up regularly for sale in Turkey (as noted above) which again denotes heavy theatre distribution and
2. Fakes are being made-including a "naval varient" with blue enamel. the most common is a kelly green enameled type.
A close up of the above-now that we're back in business picture-wise....while I have this cranked up to 500 dps I can get a little more detail-however, there's just enough detail under magnification and side ligt to see the swirl pattern within the enamel centre of the star-indicating a probable BB & Co. piece.