Indian Army Day pics - Ed might like 'em

[Eric Stahlhut]

Gee, Fellas

I guess Flashman was wrong after all!


Has anyone read any of those wonderful books by George Macdonald Frasier?

I used to devour that series quite voraciously in my youth. This thread reminded me of them.

Thanks for the great (th)read!Good old Flashy.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

India is not only not deeply studied, it is almost completly ignored (I looked through some old college history books and I hardly found a mention of India).

Anyway, subjective views of what is and isn't "superb" (what kick-started this thread) can go on forever, but out of my mouthing off my view (to which I still subscribe) I certainly learned something. Thanks for taking the time to respond, type, etc.

[Adam H]

I've been biting my tongue on this one successfully up until now. Sorry Seba mate but with all due respect I'm afraid I have to side with Ed, Chris, Rick, et al on this on. I personally consider India to be one of the premier fighting nations of the past 200+ years.

I think one would be hard pressed to find examples of a country whose people have fought in as many crucial and historically significant battles, campaigns and wars as the Indian Army.

Perhaps they don't have the international notoriety of the Germans, or Russians or the USA or whomever...from a North American perspective, with the facts laid bare I'd say it's rather difficult to dispute their contribution to the military history of the past 2 or so centuries.

Indian army medals are very interesting to me, and I am the proud owner of about a dozen or so groups that constitute a considerable percentage of my "Far East POW" collection. Perhaps I'll show a few of these in the days and weeks to come...

I hope we can all agree to disagree!

Cheers all and thanks for an interesting discussion.

Adam

[Adam H]

Oh and Eric...yes the Flashman novels are excellent reading...right up there with Sharpe's escapades!

Cheerio!

Adam

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Adam,
Any groupd to Skinners horse or Fanes Horse?
All the best
Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

"I hope we can all agree to disagree! "

or disagree to agree

If everyone agreed, oh ! what a boring place of discussion a forum would be!

[Adam H]

Hi Chris,

Sadly I have no groups to those units. Will keep an eye out for you though. How are you doing anyhow?

I was back in Toronto over the holidays. Seems to be totally dead collecting-wise still. Didn't see one medal besides a few way-overpriced WWII common medals, depressing!

Cheers

Adam

[Ed_Haynes]

Indian Military History Bibliography

Taking advantage of 10 inches of snow in a part of the world (South Carolina, USA) that views such stuff as a clear indication of the impending end of the known universe, herewith the threatened bibliography.

Listed in declining order:

1) Philip Mason, A Matter of Honour: An Account of the Indian Army Its Officers and Men - old-fashioned, overly nostalgic, but a good place to start with the "feel" from one who was there

2) Byron Farwell, Armies of the Raj: From the Great Mutiny to Independence, 1858-1947 - more narrow that Mason, though with many of the same limitations - a good "unreconstructed new-imperialist twin" - but more "history lite" than Mason

3) David Omissi, The Sepoy and the Raj: The Indian Army, 1860-1940 - a more serious, more academic book from someone who goes beyond nostalgia to actually use the archives

4) S. L. Menezes, Fidelity and Honour: The Indian Army from the Seventeenth to the Twenty-first Century - reminding us that the world didn't end in 1947 - a somewhat controversial book, and therefore great fun

5) K. C. Praval, Indian Army After Independence - very much operational history, but a good overview of the post-1947 period

6) Brian Cloughley, A History of the Pakistan Army: Wars and Insurrections, 2nd ed. - the other side of the line - not much good on Pakistan

7) John Gaylor, Sons of John Company: The Indian & Pakistan Armies 1903-1991 - A, no THE, absolutely necessary volume for anyone with any serious interest, especially for "our sort" - should probably be used together with Donovan Jackson, India's Army, though this 1940 publication is incredibly expensive if you can even find it (there is a really low-quality reprint around, though)

8) Sita Ram Pandey, Sepoy to Subadar, being the Life and Adventures of Subadar Sita Ram, a Native Officer of the Bengal Army, written and Related by Himself, ed. James Lunt - controversial, perhaps authentic, perhaps not (I think it is real, at least most of it), but great fun and insightful anyway for the pre-1857 period

9) Gordon Corrigan, Sepoys in the Trenches: The Indian Corps on the Western Front, 1914-15 - has problems, by an old Gurkha officer, but a good glimpse at a studiously overlooked and carefully ignored campaign

10) Edward S. Haynes and Rana T. S. Chhina, Medals and Decorations of Independent India - an incredibly self-serving suggestion, excuse me - expected AT LONG LAST by this coming fall (?)

Much research not done, as it is only recently that the topic has become "sexy" among historians. Many reasons for this, some of them lying in the immense burden of the conjoined regimental-history operational-history imperial-history tradition.

More than any of you wanted, I'm sure. Never ask a professional historian for a reading list in their own field!

Ed Haynes

PS- And I was severely tempted to add George M. Fraser's "Flashman" books, expecially the first one (1st Afghan War) and the "Mutiny" one ("Great Game"). Beneath the sexism, racism, etc., there lurks a nice fun pseudo-history. Recommend them to my students, though I get in trouble sometimes for that (too).

[Ed_Haynes]

More funny hats?

Rehearsing for Republic Day, the 4th Gorkha Rifles. Can't say which battalion, but not the 3rd, as they don't seem to be wearing their Chindit badge.



Ed Haynes

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Ed, if you had to pick one of those books, for someone like... say.. me (who has superficial knowlege of the topic, and who likes "flowing" reading), which one would you recommend? (and you can't say yours ).

(pps - if the chief bottle washer agrees... well.. I must look into it)

[Ed_Haynes]

Actually -- and I'm sorry I didn't make this clear -- I listed them in declining order, #1 = #1, #10 = #10. Start with Mason and work down. I also took issues of availability (and cost) into account.

And, had I allowed myself more than an arbitrary 10, I'd have added:

11) Amarinder Singh, Lest We Forget

12) Amarinder Singh, A Ridge Too Far: War in the Kargil Heights, 1999

These, together or separately, give the best "gut" feeling I have ever encountered on what the Indian army has been up to since 1947. Both by a retired captain, current Chief Minister of the Punjab, and, not coincidentrally, the current Maharaja of Patiala.

Maybe not easy to get outside of India, but well worth the effort.

Some of the photos in A Ridge Too Far really clarify what war in the high Himalayas is all about. Now, if we just had a good book on the ongoing Indo-Pakistani near-war on the Siachen Glacier. Imagine war at 22,000 feet! In the meantime, see http://web.outsideonline.com/news/he...0030110_1.html for a start?

Ed Haynes

[Chris Boonzaier]

I have not read the Farwell book (or many others for that matter) but I will be looking for it online.

The mason book is really good, but also sometimes really heavy going.

Farwell has to be one of the most readable writers around. Whether you take his books on the Boer war, War in Africa during WW1, War in Somalia against the mahdi, etc. etc. (and he has written quite a few) they are really worth the time, and enjoyable.

I seem to remember he is a Yank who served in WW2.

So, without having read it, I would suggest the Farwell as a starting point, especially on the flowing reading point.

Then mason as second step.

[Ed_Haynes]

My major problem with Farwell is his time frame. If you ignore pre-1860, you miss much of "the point" to tehg Indian army and cannot understand 1857 (to the limited extent that it was a"Sepoy Mutiny"). In addition, Mason was Indian Civil Service, and was "of the 'Raj'" and, therefore, adds an authentic "I was there" subliminal twist. Except for that, he and Mason are essentially mix-and-match general surveys. Both are, I think, still in print in cheap(ish) paperbacks.

Ed Haynes

[Chris Boonzaier]

agreed, but I still believe that Farwell is a good way to ease ones way into a historical field, without being hampered by the really dry stuff. I dont know the book you mentioned, but have read 4-5 others by him.

I assume it to be a kind of "Indian Army for Dummies" which is why I will be buying it sometime in the near future.

His Boer war book (for example) is highly readable, misses many details (some of them important), but still give a great overall view.


I was a phone call away from ordering ...

9) Gordon Corrigan, Sepoys in the Trenches: The Indian Corps on the Western Front, 1914-15 - has problems, by an old Gurkha officer, but a good glimpse at a studiously overlooked and carefully ignored campaign

What are the problems? I will buy it anyway, but would be interested tosee what I should take with a grain of salt.

All the best
Chris

[Ed_Haynes]

Corrigan's "problems" are simple for anyone familiar with the working of the regimental system (whether British or in any of the successor states): He sees the entire world through the lens of His Regiment. He talks about His Regiment constantly. At times he seems to believe the wider Army IS His Regiment. All human hstory is the History of His Regiment. This throws Corrigan's focus off as he often writes as a Regimental rather than as a Historian. At times you think only the Gurkhas were in the Indian Army and that only Gurkhas were in France, It is worth flagging the table of organization of -- for example -- the Lahore Division (pp. 25-26) to glance over at the end of each chapter to remember yourself who really was there.

It is one thing to be be Regimental when you are writing just a regimental history. (Actually, that can be pretty bad too! I helped set up a program at USI-I for retired officers who think they want to write a history of Their Regiment.) But it is quite another thing entirely to be a Regimental when you attempt to write a broader history of a complex and multi-faceted campaign. A wider prespective is always needed.

And, at all stages, it is nice to have some training as a historian, not just an interest in history. Amateurs writing history are fine enough, I guess, but I'm not sure an amateur performing cardiac surgery is all that wondrous. Corrigan "describes his interests as military history, Gurkhas and horses" (back dustjacket flap).

Still, Corrigan is a fun read, on an under studied and under appreciated campaign. And it is his intent to reverse that ignorance, though maybe too stridently and defensively at times. Now, where is the history of Indian troops in France 1915-18? And in Mesopotamia? And at Gallipoli? And in a fascinating but generally unknown campaign, East Africa? And . . . ?

Ed Haynes