What am I missing? This sold for over 2700 euro on ebay

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Hi Guys,

When I first saw this on ebay I thought cool that is a rare buckle. I even bid on it but quickly it became a bit more than I was willing to pay. In the end it went for over 2600 or 2700 euro. Are these buckles so rare that, that is a price one has to be willing to pay to own one of these buckles or was this a bit of auction madness?

Cheers, W.I.R.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

2

[Robert Evans]

If original, (looks pretty good to me) this is a rare puppy, usually only seen in photos. I would love to own one, but probably not for $3K.

Appararantly, just one battalion of infantry, a battery of field artillery, and maybe an support unit or 2 were issued these, less than a quarter of 1% of the entire Imperial German army.

[stross]

Cool! I don't know anything about it, but would like to. Do you know what units specifically and why they got it? Truly unique from what I little know of imperial buckles.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Cool! I don't know anything about it, but would like to. Do you know what units specifically and why they got it? Truly unique from what I little know of imperial buckles.

It is a Mecklenburg Strelitz buckle so GR 89 II battalion and a very few others (see earlier post). What makes it more special is that it is a M1915 which is more rare than the preceding peace time model and it has a leather tab to boot. So all in all quite rare but still 2700 euro for a belt buckle is a lot of money.

[Christian J]

What about this one?

[ww1czechlegion]

I started a thread on this and another example of the buckle a short time ago here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=907995

The other buckle (first two photos shown in the other thread which I started about this buckle) actually sold for a mere 167,00 Euros!!! I was asleep at the wheel and missed out on it.

I spoke with Bob Evans yesterday about this buckle, and told him that I had been the 3rd high bidder on the buckle. I realized how rare it was. At a military collector show on Saturday, friend and forum member Chip M told me that the winning bidder was a Dutch collector of Imperial German shoulder boards and buckles. Chip said that Money was no object to that collector, and my guess would be that he probably placed a very high proxy bid in order to win the buckle by beating out the 2nd highest bidder, and me as the 3rd high bidder. Who knows, the Dutch collector who won the buckle may have been willing to pay 5K Euros, or who knows how much for it if money was not an object in order for him to have it in his collection. That is an entirely different realm of what the buckle is truly worth when you have someone of such financial means as that collector has in order to buy a rare buckle for his collection when he sees such a buckle available to bid on in an auction format. The humorous thing for me in being the losing 3rd place bidder for the buckle is that apparently this Dutch collector also missed out on the example as I did that sold for a mere 167 Euros! That's a little bit humorous I believe.

Yes, as Bob Evans mentioned, only 1-Batallion of Infantry + 1-Battery of Field Artillery + maybe a support unit or two. These are probably almost Non-Existent in Surviving Examples from WW1, and were produced in far smaller numbers than their M95 Example Buckles that are so Heavily Reproduced. Ultra, Ultra Rare Indeed. A top contender for the "Holy Grail" of Imperial German buckles in my humble opinion. Weitze's team told me at the SOS a few years ago when I inquired as to whether they had ever seen one for sale, they said only 1-that they had ever seen for sale.

By the way the photo of the example shown in the posting directly above this posting is a well-known fake. Bob & I were speaking about this at a military collector show yesterday about how there are tons of fakes of the Brass & Nickel Model 1895 Strelitz buckle in existence. I think that there are most likely more fakes out there than there are real, honest examples that exist. I shouldn't laugh, because it is actually pretty sad that so many collectors get burned with fake M95 Mecklenburg-Strelitz buckles.

Best Regards,

Alan

[ww1czechlegion]

As a side note: My handy little pocket size reference book "Deutsche Koppelschlosser 1800-1918" Specialkatalog mit Handelspreisen von Lothar Bichlmaier und Lothar Hartung has a listing and photo example for this buckle, as "Nr. 50" on page 64. They list it as "Modell 1915-1918" with a price of "Euros 330,-". The book is copyright 2009.

A person probably has to take that price with a grain of salt, since they list buckle "Nr. 14" the Bavarian Telegraph Troop in Iron Field Gray at Euros 390,- which is a price that dozens of collectors would "kill" to find an example priced at. It is highly unlikely that any collector will ever find an M15 steel Bavarian Telegraph Troop Buckle in their lifetime. Personally I will never expect to find one for my collection in my lifetime.

Best Regards,

Alan

[kaiserwilhelm2]

What about this one?

Fake

[90th Light]

By the way the photo of the example shown in the posting directly above this posting is a well-known fake. Bob & I were speaking about this at a military collector show yesterday about how there are tons of fakes of the Brass & Nickel Model 1895 Strelitz buckle in existence. I think that there are most likely more fakes out there than there are real, honest examples that exist. I shouldn't laugh, because it is actually pretty sad that so many collectors get burned with fake M95 Mecklenburg-Strelitz buckles.

Best Regards,

Alan

It is very important that collectors understand that the fake buckle shown in post number 6, originates from Latvia. Although they are now being sold via a seller listed as being in the UK.

This current generation of fakes are made via some form of lost wax casting. The brass bits of the buckle are cast is the silver state/ kingdom roundel. When compared directly with an original they will be up to 10% smaller when measured.

The earlier fakes made in Germany from the 1990's and before are far more dangerous and one would be wise to study those up before they buy,

Chris

[90th Light]

Quoting books, valuations and estimated prices is always interesting and entertaining. But a guess is nothing more than a guess. Adam Smith wrote in the 1770's, the "Invisible Hand" will always decide where demand meets supply. When one goes after these buckle rarities, take your one bags of gold rather than a bag of gold to the fight;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=rarest+buckle

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=rarest+buckle

At the end of the day it all comes down to what one will sell for and what one will buy for. Of course we all hope to find a sleeper at a bargain price but hope is usually the last one to leave,

Chris

p.s. anyone got an extremely rare M15 or M16, "JG 107" & "GG 108" Saxon buckles to show and add here ?

[ww1czechlegion]

By member 90th Light
It is very important that collectors understand that the fake buckle shown in post number 6, originates from Latvia. Although they are now being sold via a seller listed as being in the UK.

This current generation of fakes are made via some form of lost wax casting. The brass bits of the buckle are cast is the silver state/ kingdom roundel. When compared directly with an original they will be up to 10% smaller when measured.

The earlier fakes made in Germany from the 1990's and before are far more dangerous and one would be wise to study those up before they buy,

Chris

Hi Chris, and Others,

Here is an example of the older fake disk that was probably made in Germany, or elsewhere in Europe as far back as the 1980's from what I've been told.

As Chris mentions above, it is "far more dangerous and one would be wise to study those up before they buy." For the untrained eye, this one is more capable of fooling a novice collector as compared to the easily detected Latvian fake cast wax example that has been shown above.

These much more dangerous fake Strelitz disks are found on a normal original buckle frame that has had the disk replaced with one of these fake Strelitz disks.

The example I am posting that Kai Winkler has for sale on eBay Germany is quite obvious because the buckle frame itself is a modern made well-known fake buckle frame. Usually one sees these fake Strelitz disks on original M95 buckle frames, and they are not so easily detected unless you know what to look for.

Best Regards,

Alan

[ww1czechlegion]

Here's what I believe is another fake Mecklenburg-Strelitz buckle. This one is artificially aged, and the disk is mounted on a Pre-1895 buckle frame.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Hi Alan, Thanks for posting these fakes. Cheers, W.I.R.