Opinions on Pickelhaube

[hagen.191]

Hi folks. Opinions on this one would be nice! Thanks in advance!

[hagen.191]

[drempfer]

Mannschaften (Other Ranks) Model of 1895 Prüssen Pickelhaube. Needs kokarden and a chinstrap and a little love. I don't know if the Pecard company can ship their products to Deutschland, but if they can, I would pick up some of their antique leather dressing and bring this helmet back to life. From the pictures, it looks solid enough. You can also work on the brass with a common brass polish. I think you have a nice (though damaged) pickelhaube that can be brought back to a beautiful luster. In my opinion, this one is worthy of restoration. Good luck!

[ww1czechlegion]

For Cleaning and Care of this Helmet please go to the website Kaiser's Bunker and read Tony's excellent and easy to follow instructions for cleaning and preserving a pickelhaube. Follow this link: "Kaiser's Bunker Guide to Conservation and Display of Antique Headgear" http://www.kaisersbunker.com/preservation/index.htm

I don't know if the Pecard company can ship their products to Deutschland, but if they can, I would pick up some of their antique leather dressing and bring this helmet back to life. From the pictures, it looks so

Please do yourself a favor and toss out any ideas of wanting to use Pecard leather care products on the liner of this Model 1895 Prussian Enlisted man's helmet or any other helmet liner.

Whoever chooses to use Pecard Leather Care Products, or Any Other Leather Care Product on a helmet liner has never yet seen the long term devastating effects of using such nonsensical products that do nothing but Harm & Destroy the leather in these military helmets.

It is a known fact among most collectors that the long term effect of having once used leather care products on leather liners makes them actually rot and self-destruct. The result is a greasy, slimy leather liner that will self-destruct over a period of time. I will guarantee that if you use Pecards, you will ruin your helmet liner and actually decrease the value of your helmet.

And the same goes for putting your leather liner helmets on Styrofoam Heads. The gas given off by the Styrofoam Heads destroys the leather liner of the helmet and the leather helmet as well.

My advice is to leave the interior of your helmet alone. The liner does not look to be in bad condition. It does not have dry rot from what I can see. The best thing you can do for it is to keep it in a climate controlled environment with steady temperatures and humidity to keep the leather stable.

The leather of the helmet does not look all that bad. It is an "entry-level" helmet, one of the most commonly found and abundant helmets. Unless it is a family piece from a relative, personally I would probably save my money and find a nicer one to keep.

Best Regards,

Alan

[drempfer]

Just a disagreement

For Cleaning and Care of this Helmet please go to the website Kaiser's Bunker and read Tony's excellent and easy to follow instructions for cleaning and preserving a pickelhaube. Follow this link: "Kaiser's Bunker Guide to Conservation and Display of Antique Headgear" http://www.kaisersbunker.com/preservation/index.htm



Please do yourself a favor and toss out any ideas of wanting to use Pecard leather care products on the liner of this Model 1895 Prussian Enlisted man's helmet or any other helmet liner.

Whoever chooses to use Pecard Leather Care Products, or Any Other Leather Care Product on a helmet liner has never yet seen the long term devastating effects of using such nonsensical products that do nothing but Harm & Destroy the leather in these military helmets.

It is a known fact among most collectors that the long term effect of having once used leather care products on leather liners makes them actually rot and self-destruct. The result is a greasy, slimy leather liner that will self-destruct over a period of time. I will guarantee that if you use Pecards, you will ruin your helmet liner and actually decrease the value of your helmet.

And the same goes for putting your leather liner helmets on Styrofoam Heads. The gas given off by the Styrofoam Heads destroys the leather liner of the helmet and the leather helmet as well.

My advice is to leave the interior of your helmet alone. The liner does not look to be in bad condition. It does not have dry rot from what I can see. The best thing you can do for it is to keep it in a climate controlled environment with steady temperatures and humidity to keep the leather stable.

The leather of the helmet does not look all that bad. It is an "entry-level" helmet, one of the most commonly found and abundant helmets. Unless it is a family piece from a relative, personally I would probably save my money and find a nicer one to keep.

Best Regards,

Alan

Alan, I respect your passion and opinion. I've read the information on Kaiser's Bunker and think that it's a darn good guideline. Having collected for more than a couple of decades, and formulating my own opinions, maybe I'll just have to keep them to myself next time and allow "to each his own". But, in my opinion, we know ONE thing for certain: eventually, all leather will disintegrate. Maybe it will take 800 plus years, but it WILL disintegrate. Having said that, we have options. We may do nothing OR we may allow time to take its course and provide the best environment we can for our collectibles by keeping them out of sunlight, controlling the humidity, etc. or we may take other steps. In my opinion and in my experience, Pecard, unlike other products such as Vaseline or shoe polish, brings life to aged leather. It hydrates the leather and allows the natural fibers to breathe and live again. In my opinion, and contrary to yours, It greatly slows down the aging process. It is the choice of museum curators all over the world. Again, I respect your opinion and I hope you will respect mine. I want nothing but the best enjoyment for collectors and the preservation of the history that we so love!

[Chip M]

I know that many museums, if they treat leather at all, use a product called Renaissance Wax. Here is what Wiki says about British Museum Leather Dressing and other products of that ilk.

"Leather dressings are applied as lubricants to leather, particularly items that are in use, rather than on static display. They are beneficial when a leather item has lost its flexibility, or when it must be protected from future variations in humidity. Lubricants should be avoided for leather unless necessary. An excess of them may attract airborne dust or even moulds. If the item does not need to be flexible, then there is rarely a need to lubricate it. An excess of lubricant may actually act to seal the surface and repel moisture, causing the leather to dry out even further. There is certainly no need to 'feed' leather — it is already dead. If the requirement is to improve the surface appearance alone, a wax treatment such as Renaissance Wax may be more appropriate. Most lubricants will darken the leather."


At least one knowledgeable dealer I know, specifically states that Pecard's has not been used on his offered leather items, as many collectors know of the possible problems related to the use of the product.


Chip

[drempfer]

I know that many museums, if they treat leather at all, use a product called Renaissance Wax. Here is what Wiki says about British Museum Leather Dressing and other products of that ilk.

"Leather dressings are applied as lubricants to leather, particularly items that are in use, rather than on static display. They are beneficial when a leather item has lost its flexibility, or when it must be protected from future variations in humidity. Lubricants should be avoided for leather unless necessary. An excess of them may attract airborne dust or even moulds. If the item does not need to be flexible, then there is rarely a need to lubricate it. An excess of lubricant may actually act to seal the surface and repel moisture, causing the leather to dry out even further. There is certainly no need to 'feed' leather — it is already dead. If the requirement is to improve the surface appearance alone, a wax treatment such as Renaissance Wax may be more appropriate. Most lubricants will darken the leather."


At least one knowledgeable dealer I know, specifically states that Pecard's has not been used on his offered leather items, as many collectors know of the possible problems related to the use of the product.


Chip

Good points Chip. Thanks!

[ww1czechlegion]

I agree with what Chip says 100%. The museums that I am familiar with don't use Pecards. If they use anything at all (most leave the leather alone), they use the Renaissance Wax product as Chip says.

Much of the collector field (including myself being a collector for the past 35-years), and much of the museum curator field (myself being a former curator for 7-plus years) now understand to not use Pecards on leather, because these people have seen the destructive results of Pecards and other leather product treatments. Fiebings 4-Care is another one not to use. Back in the 1980's some of my collector friends and myself were fed a line of garbage that Fiebings was the greatest savior of leather to come along. Maybe for work boots that you don't plan to keep for a lifetime, but certainly not for military leather goods that one wants to keep for a lifetime.

I have seen many helmet pads in M16 or M17 helmets that were treated years ago with Pecards, and the pads have now fallen out of the helmets. The pads are almost always without exception, a greasy, slimy mess. I have one of these helmets in my collection that a former collector treated with this product, and the pads fell out long before he sold it to me. I have the pads, and the chinstrap was treated as well. The chinstrap is also a slimy, greasy mess. A complete, irreversible disaster.

As long as you stabilize and monitor the relative humidity in the environment of your collection, and narrow the range of temperature change exposure for your leather objects, they will be just fine by leaving them alone and not treating them with a leather product.

Best Regards,

Alan

[jerryrehr]

I would leave it alone. Its done well in the last 100+ years with out any help. The visor trim is a nightmare to replace the original parts and re sewing would be more than the helmet is worth in present condition. It is what it is and nothing more IMO. Not a rare or historic item by a long shot.
Jerry

[drempfer]

Legitimate question

Gentlemen, Jerry, Chip, Alan,
I am by no means a know-it-all, and, even as an older dog, I am certainly willing to learn new tricks. I still want to learn. That being said, I want to set up my question appropriately and I am by no means being sarcastic.
Ok, here we go: are you all saying (with the exception of Rennaissance Wax) that all leather conditioners, to include kiwi polish, neatsfoot oil, pecard's, and anything else out there on the market are all harmful to leather? So if, for example, a German Soldier in 1915 applied some type of polish or conditioner to any leather item of kit, that he was actually contributing to the destruction of the item? Granted, that wasn't the concern at the time. The concern was bullets, bombs, etc., it was not one of his top concerns. I condition all sorts of things that I own all the time, such as my leather jacket, my hunting boots, my dress shoes, etc. simply put: are all of these products bad for the leather, and if so, why do we use them?
Thanks for your time and thoughtful answers in advance.

[Brian Calkins]

This is an interesting discussion...

It seems to me the deeper question here is who are you (each of us) as collectors? Are you an investor hoping for an eventual monetary profit? Are you a one man museum dedicated to preserving artifacts for future generations? Or are you just a guy who likes stuff and is willing to pay to collect a bunch of it to put on a dusty shelf?

We all collect in a different way based on our interests, wants and available funds.

I know collectors who have much of their collection in storage. If stored well, that helps protects items, but then how can you enjoy something that's in a box? There is the other end of the spectrum...the late Rod Parker stored many items piled in cardboard boxes in his barn on his farm in Texas where much of it was destroyed by moths and mice.

We purchase these items, we own them, so what is our obligation to their care and maintenance? It's a question you have to look within yourself to answer.

Other thoughts?

[ww1czechlegion]

Hi Dan,

It's my understanding that neatsfoot oil and similar products eventually rots sewn threads in leather. Someone please correct me if that statement is wrong.

The discussion over the past several years on assorted other forums is to now leave the old leather items alone, and monitor the temperature and humidity. Humidity & Temperature fluctuations are enemies of leather, and the easiest to control. Same conventional wisdom is now widely agreed upon with the vast majority of those in the professional museum field, to leave the old leather alone. Wide changes in exposure to humidity & temperature are what has caused most of the problems that old leather goods may have, if they have problems.

Chip summed up the thought process in his above posting:

By Chip M.
I know that many museums, if they treat leather at all, use a product called Renaissance Wax. Here is what Wiki says about British Museum Leather Dressing and other products of that ilk.

"Leather dressings are applied as lubricants to leather, particularly items that are in use, rather than on static display. They are beneficial when a leather item has lost its flexibility, or when it must be protected from future variations in humidity. Lubricants should be avoided for leather unless necessary. An excess of them may attract airborne dust or even moulds. If the item does not need to be flexible, then there is rarely a need to lubricate it. An excess of lubricant may actually act to seal the surface and repel moisture, causing the leather to dry out even further. There is certainly no need to 'feed' leather — it is already dead. If the requirement is to improve the surface appearance alone, a wax treatment such as Renaissance Wax may be more appropriate. Most lubricants will darken the leather."


At least one knowledgeable dealer I know, specifically states that Pecard's has not been used on his offered leather items, as many collectors know of the possible problems related to the use of the product.

Best Regards,

Alan

[nickn]

I have used Connolly hide food (lanolin )on a variety of antique leather items mostly holster but also on a couple of picklehaube with good results and with no obvious problems
What's in pecards

[soldbuch]

renovation

I have renovated some helmets over the past 30 years the trick being to do as little as possible. The Germans did not use products that turned helmets into "Greasy messes" that is why so many of them are around today. A pair of hunting boots and a Pickelhaube do two different things and need to be different in structure to be good at what they do, how many pairs of WW1 hunting boots do you see today for sale? If you try hard enough it is possible to kill a Pickelhaube severe handling will destroy the brittle leather and fittings, if you are short of time a heavy hammer and an angle grinder work just as well but dont say you have not been warned. If you have no skill at renovation leave alone nuf said, ask someone with the skill to renovate to do the job and pay the man as he is worth his weight in gold, you will have a better item at the end of the day and after sitting on your shelf for a couple of years it will look untouched again unless you get the wire brush out every 6 months
Documental

[drempfer]

Thanks gentlemen. I appreciate the input of all and have enjoyed the education. Like nickn, I have mostly treated holsters (with pecard's) and have obtained very good results. I have, however, treated leather liners (not on pickelhaube, but other helmets) and belts, and to date have not seen negative results, though I'm definitely worried, based on some of these comments. In the past, when living in Germany, I spoke with many collectors who treated their items as a way to "preserve" them. The general concensus was that 'Americans do nothing and let their items rot'. (Not my words). I certainly realize those folks could be dead wrong. On the ingredients in Pecard's, I'll look it up and post. Next logical question: If the current majority opinion assumes that treatment is not recommended ... Is there any way to reverse the treatment that was done? I'll assume the answer is no and we should simply leave the item alone. Thanks again, Dan