Visor hat help

[Garth Thompson]

I'm guessing that this is a 20's vintage visor. I know the wreath wasn't used during WW1 and the wreath and a cockade in gols with a black eagle was used during the Wiemar period but can't quite place this hat. The piping is the golden brown usually associated with Recon troops in WW2 but don't know if this is true for the period of this hat. I have a black leather chin strap that goes with it but the button thread has fallen apart.
Thanks,
Garth

[Garth Thompson]

Hat interior

[PaulChep]

I have never seen a hat like that with the wreath. That DOES NOT mean it is wrong. I just find it different. Nice though.

[Glenn2438]

Vorläufige Reichswehr

Garth,

that appears to be an early post war Dienstmütze of the Vorläufige Reichswehr. I would suggest however that the cockades are in the wrong position. The German cockade or Reichskokarde should be in the laurel wreath and the Landeskokarde, in this case Württemberg on the upper part of the cap. On 29 Sep 1919 the black, red and gold eagle cockade replaced the earlier Reichskokarde. Brown was used by flying and airship personnel at this time.

Regards
Glenn

[Garth Thompson]

Garth,

that appears to be an early post war Dienstmütze of the Vorläufige Reichswehr. I would suggest however that the cockades are in the wrong position. The German cockade or Reichskokarde should be in the laurel wreath and the Landeskokarde, in this case Württemberg on the upper part of the cap. On 29 Sep 1919 the black, red and gold eagle cockade replaced the earlier Reichskokarde. Brown was used by flying and airship personnel at this time.

Regards
Glenn

Glenn,
Many thanks. I've looked carefully at the cockade attachment and it sure looks like these have been in place for an awfully long time. Would the post 29 Sep 19 Reichswehr have used the same cap with the eagle cockade and what would have been used above the wreath?
Regards,
Garth

[Glenn2438]

Vorläufige Reichswehr

Garth,

they would have worn the same cap. The only difference being the new eagle cockade. Of course once the provisions of the Versailles Treaty kicked in, there would have been no flying or airship personnel. With regards the placement of the cockades I do not attach too much importance to that. I assume things were pretty chaotic at this period and all sorts of variations appear to be the norm. Light brown Waffenfarbe became the arm of service piping of the signal troops in January 1921.

Regards
Glenn]

[Dave Mosher]

Garth
Based on the construction and the piping, the cap would date from 1919 to the early 1930s when the light brown waffenfarbe was eliminated from that style of cap. A couple of things are not correct, and makes it hard to actually date the cap. Prior to the Reichsadler cockade being instituted in September of 1919, the previous national (red/white/black) cockade was placed on the cap band encircled by an oakleaf wreath and the Landeskokarde from a particular state (in this case Wurttemberg) was worn above them. Your cap has the Kokarden reversed. Either the cap was worn in 1919/ early 1920, before the Reichsadler replaced the national cockade and the cockades were reversed or the Reichsadler has been removed and replaced by the national cockade. The cockades themselves are enlisted and the piping is very interesting. From 1919-1921, brown waffenfarbe was used on Fliegertruppen and Luftschiffertruppen. From 1921-1936, light brown waffenfabe was used on Nachrichtentruppen (signals or communication troops) until it was replaced with lemon yelow waffenfabe.

Regards

Dave

[Chip M]

Garth,
No one has mentioned this, but could this be a Gendarmerie cap? The body seems to be the right gray green color of police wool and the brown band with orange piping were the colors of the rural police. I'm not sure when this color combination kicked in, but it was carried through until 1945. So my vote would be for an early Gendarmerie cap based on what I can see.

Regards,
Chip

[Arran]

I agree...if it were simply a Reichswehr Army cap, the band should be a medium green rather than brown...

[Glenn2438]

Württemberg

The Freistaat Württemberg did not have a force of Gendarmerie and its equivalent, the Landjäger had red piping. Early Reichsheer caps were fitted with field grey bands.

Regards
Glenn

[Garth Thompson]

Now I'm really confused . The lighting in the picture may have altered the colors of the cap so I'll try and clarify. The cap body is decidedly gray/green, almost a perfect match for WW2 vintage Army EM caps I have. I compared it to a Police EM and it doen't match even closely. The band is a brownish grey vs. green/gray. The piping is definately brown close to the color usually associated with recon troops not even close the police gendarme. The wreath is attached with three prongs, base and each corner. The band color under the cockade and wreath is darker indicating less exposure to fading.

Thanks for all the help sofar guys ,
Garth