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    Prussian Pilot help

    Hi all! This tunic came to me just today and I don't know what to think about it. The tunic is standard field grey Ulanka with yellow piping and flight boards. The tunic history, came from the family, been in same collection since 1970 (no doubts to this). However several things confuse me.

    1. This individual was a pilot, but started in Ulanen-Regt. Kaiser Alexander II von Rußland and then became a pilot in 1917. The piping colors for von Russland is red, yet this tunic has yellow piping. I know pipings came in different colors for "regiments": for aviation troops during the war, and some individuals kept their piping from their original units (von Richtofen being a prime example). This individual was wounded in 1917 and was relegated to desk duty for the remainder of the war. Could he have switched his piping yet retained his uhlan uniform?



    2. This tunic looks like an EM tunic rather than officer. I know some guys wore EM tunics as a work tunic or combat tunic rather than their nice officer one. Was that standard? The depot marks are on the back of the tunic yet very faded. Was this a common practice for officers and field grey tunics from WW1 (my experience comes with German WW2 where anything was possible)

    3. One board popped off so you can see the stitching, The boards look good to me, the piping is more vibrant than the lower parts of the tunic which could indicate wear or replacement later on.



    I'm at a loss for this one. I don't know if the individual would have changed his piping after getting wounded, and kept his uhlan tunic rather than switching to the standard tunic in 1917. The story from the family is the tunic came from the deceased pilots wife in the late 60's/70's. The guy who had it was a huge enthusiast for WW1 aviation. There are photos with him and the pilot in the hospital, but no records of the tunic from the wife. I know the old adage, don't buy the story; but this story is pretty good. There would also be very little reason for the individual to fake the tunic and the story, especially in the 70's/80's. I'm just at a loss to why it is not officer quality, why the piping is yellow rather than red.
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              #7
              There is a lot going on here and I am probably missing some things, but here goes:

              This is a private made (based on the lining for one thing) Friedens Rock or future peacetime tunic as authorized in 1916 (please fix my spelling!) BUT this one as several differences including the 1915 pattern buttons (not smooth) the lack of facings on the collar and cuffs with the piping instead. The fact that it has a seam around the waist and no skirt pockets tell me that the basic cut is that of the FR 1916 as mentioned above.

              I can only guess that this one was altered or completed to appear as a service Ulanka, at least somewhat.

              The piping may have all been yellow originally. I know for a fact that it is not unusual for WWI era German Citron Yellow piping to simply loose its color and appear white today.

              You would need to really look at the less exposed areas of the piping to see if there is a trace of light yellow present.

              I like the prop devices more than I don't. I can not explain the unit stamps in such a garment and would need to see clear photos of them to have a chance to offer an explanation

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                #8
                You might be able to lift up parts of the EKII ribbon without cutting the stitching and see the un-faded piping underneath

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                  #9
                  I think that I went a little overboard in trying to figure out if the tunic piping was originally yellow as when I re-read the post it seems clear that in person it can be seen to be faded yellow. I have doubts that the boards are the ones that came on it, especially the way that they are attached.

                  IMO the buttons are too large for the Ulanka and give it a poor appearance but I suppose period attachment is possible and the thread used to sew them needs to be examined.

                  The 500lb gorilla here is the configuration of the Ulanka itself. By this I mean a future peacetime cut with 1908/10 cuff and collar treatments.

                  It is for sure private purchase and I think that the ink stamps are post war. They seem to make no sense as wartime applied and I am wondering if they may be costume house property stamps. IMO this would imply that this is not the "pilot's" ulanka, as least one that he wore during the war.

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                    #10
                    I believe the big stamps on the inside are from an old American costume company. I've seen them before.

                    Steve
                    ~ The true test of a democracy is how well it protects the rights of its least popular citizens. ~

                    ~ Never cross swords with an unworthy opponent. ~

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                      #11
                      Chris,

                      First of all, you would be very wise not to believe in this story. This tunic came out of a Hollywood costume rental business, not from a family.

                      The stamps inside are from "United Costumers, Inc.". The movie studio supplier closed its doors back in the 1980s and sold off most of it's stock, including many pieces of original military drees, gear, etc. It's hayday was during the 1930s. California based collectors and dealers ended up with most of the items. Much of the military surplus stock was never used in a film and thus (except for storage age) was in very good condition.

                      Some things were altered or added to so they could be rented out.

                      Several things are apparent to me. First, the buttons appear to be current reproductions. If this were truly an officer's tunic, they should be smaller and not hollow backed.

                      The boards are put together from original pieces, but not during the period. An Oberleutnant would never have the pip above the insignia on a board. Also, officer's boards were rarely, if ever, attached to the tunic this way. They would either be sewn into the shoulder seam or attached via a tongue through a loop on the tunic shoulder.

                      My suggestion is to evaluate the tunic without the story and without the shoulder boards, to come up with a plausible identification. Only then can you decide whether it is worth the asking price.

                      Chip

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