Imperial Shoulder Straps Help

[DaveG]

I've always found it a bit difficult to properly identify Imperial straps, even though I have a pretty decent reference library. I think I've properly identified about half of the straps pictured below. I think there are two examples of Wurttemburg Dragoon Regiment 26, a Kurassier Regiment Number 6 example, and Grenadier Regiment Number 11, but the others I'm not quite sure of, especially the teal green straps and the plain green strap with crown. I'd appreciate it if anyone might help me identify the others.

[Alan Wilson]

Dave, you have Id'd the top row correctly.

The green straps I don't know. I have the green with 4 strap in my collection. Once I was told it was possibly to Schutzen Kavalerie Regiment 4. The crown field gray strap is to the 1. Baden Leib Grenadier RGT. Nr. 109.

Mike

[ww1czechlegion]

Nice shoulder straps!

Best Regards,

Alan

[DaveG]

Thanks for the ID. The search goes on for the green ones.

Dave

[pauke]

green straps

If memory serves me correctly the green straps are late-war signals. Chip can verify their meaning.

[Chip M]

The 1918 Nachrichten unit straps were this color green (hellgrun), but with red piping. These two all green examples are, as Mike suggests, from the Kavallerie-(Schützen-) Regiments.

Res.-Ulanen-(Schützen-) Rgt.Nr.4 was formed on 12/30/1916. Kavallerie-(Schützen-) Rgt.Nr.89 was formed in the Fall of 1916 and was disbanded on 9/26/1918.

The Americans must have run into the Ulan Schützen regiment, as I also own an example and so do other collectors I know.

The final piece with the crown might also be from the Dragoner Rgt.Nr.20, as this "Baden" crown was worn by two regiments. Some cavalry regiments cyphers and crowns changed from red to yellow in this pattern to differentiate between infantry and cavalry units, because otherwise, without piping, there would be no way to tell which unit it represented. I'm not sure if this held true for all cavalry regiments or just certain ones, as I have not see enough examples to know for sure and the regulations for this pattern have not come to light.

Very nice pieces.
Chip

[Chip M]

I need to correct myself on the last paragraph of my previous post. There were cavalry units with yellow cyphers and numbers, but they did not change with the advent of the unpiped strap. They had been yellow on the M1907 pattern, and therefore stayed that way. For instance, the Jäger zu Pferde Rgt.Nr.1 simplified strap had a yellow crown and cypher. The simplified overcoat strap of Husar Rgt.Nr.19 had a yellow number 19 on it, etc.

The Baden crown strap shown here can be either the infantry or cavalry unit that wore it and due to the lack of piping, there is no way to determine which regiment it is from.

Chip

[Alan Wilson]

Chip, thanks for the clarification.

Very nice straps for sure.

Mike

[DaveG]

Chip thanks so much for the additional information. Other than your no doubt many years of research, do you use or find helpful any particular reference books on this confusing subject? As I mentioned before I have what I consider to be a good selection of books on the subject but perhaps there are holes in my library. Can you offer any suggestions on references you find particular invaluable?

Thanks to you Alan as well.

Dave

[90th Light]

The final piece with the crown might also be from the Dragoner Rgt.Nr.20, as this "Baden" crown was worn by two regiments.

Very nice pieces.
Chip

Hello Chip,

How does the crown on a shoulder board for Bavarian Inf. Reg No. 1 ("Königlich Bayerisches Infanterie-Leib-Regiment") differ from Baden Inf. Reg No. 109 (Badisches Leib-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 109) & Baden Dra.Reg. 20 (1. Badisches Leib-Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 20) ?

I agree very nice boards

Chris

[Chip M]

Chris,

Well, first of all, the Bavarian Inf.-Leib-Regt. had two different crowns. Both were regulation, but significantly different. The crown on the M1907 and simplified M07 straps was basically the same crown as on the pre-war strap and proportionally equivalent to the pattern. For the 1916 pattern, the width of the strap was reduced from the earlier regulation 5.5cm to 4.5cm and the crown size was greatly reduced. I have attached some pictures for a visual comparison.



I'm also attaching a picture of a comparison of the crowns of several regiments whose straps displayed a crown only. As you will see, crowns were very standardized and specific to the unit and therefore, once you know what to look for, you can identify by regiment.



Left to right, Gren.Rgt.109, I.R.53, Inf.Leib Rgt.

Chip

[Chip M]

Dave,

For prewar shoulder straps, there are plenty of resources. Others can probably make further suggestions, but here is what I use. Any Moritz Ruhl Verlag uniform plates. They printed them from the 1880s, every year right up into the war. Original copies are few and far between, but a number of them have been reprinted, either as a booklet or in other author's books. Jan Kube's "Miltaria der deutschen Kaiserzeit Helme und Uniformen 1871-1914" contains one from 1897, which is good, but is missing the cyphers added from 1897-1914. A set of Ruhl plates is downloadable from the German WWI collector's website "Feldgrau". It's in their databank. Membership is free.

Reference for the M1907 and M1908 enlisted uniforms is more difficult. My favorite reference is "Die grauen Felduniformen der Deutschen Armee 1914" from Ulf-J. Friese u.Uwe Lacina Editionen. These excellent plates are from 1912 and were reprinted in 1983. They may still be available from the original source. At least they still show it on their website. http://fl-editionen.de/tafeln.html "Führer durch Heer und Flötte 1914" is another reference that covers (in text) the uniforms of the entire army, unit by unit, both for the blue uniforms and the M1907-08 uniforms. There are line drawings of the cyphers. The reprint from 1974 is long out of print, but you can find it at some libraries. Google Books lists it, but I could not find a downloadable copy.

For the M1915 regulations, you might be able to find a reprint of "Deutschlands Armee in feldgrauer Kriegs= und Friedens=Uniformen". It has the text of the regulations of September 21,1915, plus drawings and color uniform plates.

On the other hand, if you have any knowledge of German, the best reference, bar none, on WWI German uniforms is Jürgen Kraus's "Die feldgraue Uniformierung des deutschen Heeres 1907-1918". It is still in print, comes in three volumes, with tons of drawings and color plates with the third volume being all period photos.

You're going to have to do some looking to find all this stuff. Unfortunately, there is really nothing much in English. I hope to remedy this lack of English reference in the future.

Chip